Jurassic Park with Sean Fennessey

[00:00:01] I checked with Griffin and Dave Welcome to Padresic Cast! Great. Had to do it. You could have done a Goldblum. That's what you didn't go for.

[00:00:32] Yeah. You could have done a Goldblum. Well, it has been established on the show over the years that my Goldblum is particularly awful. Oh, interesting. I'm trying to remember this. In my pantheon of bad impressions, Goldblum might be second only to Arnold Schwarzenegger. You're very bad at Arnold Schwarzenegger. How's your Wayne Knight? Let me see. I'm going to work on it. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is Wayne Knight a hundred? I'm trying to get... He's got a very particular rasp. That's hard to approximate.

[00:01:01] He has... He's inimitable. I mean, which I guess is why Wayne Knight was Wayne Knight for the night. I should say, putting a pin in Wayne Knight's ginormous 90s. I mean, just when it was like, you can't say get me a Wayne Knight type. It's like, get me Wayne Knight or we're rewriting this character. I would argue Josh Mostel was in the mix there for the Wayne Knight part. Oh, yeah, absolutely. He was, but fucking... I mean, the degree to which Wayne Knight bigfooted him. He did. He did. He edged him right out. Josh Mostel probably has like a voodoo doll of Wayne Knight.

[00:01:29] Josh Mostel had the Nepo juice and he had a head start, right? He's in movies starting in the 70s. Oh, man. And he's got an iconic dad and yet Wayne Knight just said like, come on, give me space. I fucking forgot about Josh Mostel, man. And it is... We just watched fucking Jesus Christ Superstar. That's right. Which he's great in. He sure is. And then you just look and the 90s, the early 90s in his career, Sandler's using him.

[00:01:56] He's in City Slickers 2. You're like, oh, he's in both City Slickers, obviously. Like, you know, this is great. And then you're seeing in the 90s, it's kind of tapering off. And then the 2000s, it's like he was in two movies. Right. It's over. Because what happened? I mean, I don't know. That's what happened. I guess just market corrected him to use an expression. He market corrected him. That's right. There's the story I love that when they were casting this movie and when they were planning it out, that Spielberg saw Basic Instinct. Right. And the shot of Wayne Knight sweating profusely. Yes.

[00:02:26] The interrogation scene in which... In response to... She uncrosses her legs. He is... She does. You gotta look closely. Then what happens? This is why you gotta go 4K on Basic Instinct. Because the first time I saw it on TV, I went, what is everyone getting so worked up about? But he is... When you're looking at all the guys in that scene, he's the one where you're like, who is this fucking guy? Right. And the story has always been that Spielberg watched it and went, T-Rex cut to that reaction shot? That's a blockbuster.

[00:02:54] That he was just like, that's exactly what we need is that guy's response. Which is funny because the movie doesn't even really do that. No. He doesn't get that moment. His characterization ends up being so different than that. He also... The only man truly focused on Wayne Knight in Basic Instinct. I mean, for that to be your takeaway. Yeah. Curious choice. What vagina? But he... Yes. No, the idea that he saw that one cutaway reaction shot and was like, we can build a blockbuster around that. That is Spielberg magic, baby.

[00:03:23] But that's also fucking Wayne Knight magic. Okay. But when we're talking about Jurassic Park and we should introduce our girls before we start... As far as I'm concerned, a Wayne Knight vehicle. No, but it's that thing. It's not. Every single actor in this, when they are on screen, you're like, man, Samuel owns this fucking movie. And then Sam Jackson's on screen and you're like, I forgot that Sam Jackson has never been better than in Jurassic Park. Right. And then we cut to someone else and I just feel the same way every single time.

[00:03:45] Not to crib like a rewatchables terminology, but this is a hard movie to put through the rewatchables categories. Yes. I did it once and failed terribly. Did you guys do it? We did do an episode. Are there like 20 Apex Mountains in this movie? Well, everyone is perfect, right? Yes. So it's one of the most perfectly cast movies of all time, plus one of the most consequential artistic movies of all time. Oh yeah, you did it with Shoemaker and Brian. Yeah, Shoemaker and Brian Curtis and I did it. And I think we actually forgot to even say the name John Williams in the pod. Right.

[00:04:15] So like, if we were doing it today, it would be a nine hour episode. Right. But there's a lot to go through here. There's a lot to go through here. This movie is good. It is good. It's really good. It is good. In each decade, Spielberg makes a movie that basically breaks Hollywood's brains trying to replicate it. Yes, it's the definitive blockbuster. I mean, I guess Star Wars is the definitive blockbuster of the 70s.

[00:04:44] But Jaws, Raiders, Jurassic Park is what you're saying. Well, because we were talking about, we did our Dune episode on David Lent. I should just say quickly, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who had massive success early on in their careers say making Jaws. Sure. As their second or third film debating on how you count it. And we're given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. They hook, baby. Sometimes they hook, baby.

[00:05:12] It's a miniseries on the films of Steven Spielberg, the early years. Mm-hmm. We're using early pretty liberally. Spielberg origins. Spielberg origins. How many kids does he have when he makes this movie? Great question. Let's find out. Two? I mean, that's, I feel like the most defining aspect of this film relative to the earlier Spielberg blockbusters is this is now a father. Yes. Yes. This is a dad movie. Yes.

[00:05:40] I mean, it is, especially when you read the book, which I assume you have. I did on a beach on Long Island in the 1990s and I thought hard about returning to it for this and I just didn't have the time. I assume, Griffin, that you have not. Correct. Ben, did you ever read Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park? No. A book that I had to hide under my bed because it was so scary. Wow. I remember that very profoundly. Like I read the death of Dennis Nedry in that book, which is very violent in the book, much more violent than it is in the movie.

[00:06:10] He gets killed by Sharon Stones for training. Honestly, that is something that Michael Crichton would write. We can talk about that in a second. We'll talk about that. But, and I did the thing, like the joke in Friends of Joey putting The Shining in the freezer. Like I put the book under my bed. I was like, I can't even have the book near me. Wow. I was so freaked out. Anyway, what was it? Oh, the kid. Yeah. There's not as much overwhelming like, ah, these kids, we have to protect them in the book. Sure. The kids are more of an irritation.

[00:06:37] Well, and that's the closest thing this movie has to like an emotional spine. Right. Is Alan Grant's journey of learning to tolerate children. Starting the movie as a guy who's like, I could never have kids. And by the end is like, I get it. Right. He learns how to tolerate children and use like seatbelts correctly and so on and so forth. Right. It's not a very Spielbergian book. No. Sure, there's spectacle. But aside from that, man, it's a mean book. It's his books are fucking mean. The Crichton books are nasty.

[00:07:05] I like Michael Crichton books as like fun things to read. But I recently reread Sphere because I have twin babies and I'm just reading a lot of books on my phone right now. Yeah. Not a humble brag. Reading books on your phone? That part. That takes good eyesight. That's a humble brag. How hard are you zooming in? And Sphere is one of those books. Are you raw dog in that thing? Obviously, that was in a moment of his life where he could fucking write a book called like I Took a Shit and his editor would be like, I can't wait to get this on every bookshelf in America. Sure.

[00:07:35] But like if you submitted Sphere to me, I would just immediately reply back like, do you have a problem with women? What did they do to you? Right. I think I Took a Shit was the original title of Disclosure as I recall. But talking about it not being a very Spielberg-y book, which I just have to take your word for here. It is one of the infamous parts of this movie. It's like this is like the most white hot pitch to hit Hollywood like arguably ever. He had two children, by the way. You're correct. Okay. With Kate Capshaw.

[00:08:05] And they like throw it out to all the studios as a jump ball. And every studio goes like, here's our pitch for what we would do with this text and has their own director attached. Warner Brothers makes a play with Tim Burton. Columbia makes a play with Richard Donner. Fox makes a play with Joe Dante and Universal and Steven Spielberg. I'm obsessed with this fact. Amazing to think about all four versions.

[00:08:27] But all of them make sense in that way where you're like, here's the book as this like median object and then you could take it further in any one of these directions. Okay. Wait, we all love this movie, right? Yeah. Yes, although I'm going to call Griffin out as not being a Jurassic Park super fan. It's not totemic for me in the way I think it is for the three of you. It is a movie I have certainly over the years grown to appreciate more and more and more. But you were never really a JP boy in the same way. I wasn't a JP boy. I think that's the key distinction. It wasn't one of my movies growing up. Do any of those other three sound better to you?

[00:08:57] No. Well, the Dante one is the one that kind of... It's very intriguing. Yes. And I say this with due respect to Joe Dante. That is a fun, silly, trashy movie. You know what he did instead of this movie? Was it Matinee? Matinee. Which is one of his best movies. It's a great movie but so different in terms of scope and energy than what JP is. Right. Yes. Like the Burton version of this movie does not appeal to me particularly. That's just kind of an interesting like, well, what would that look like? Yeah. Also...

[00:09:25] Donner would have made a slightly worse version of this movie probably. Donner I think probably would have made the more crichting version. Wouldn't have pulled it further into his own voice. Donner's the most... Probably not. Sort of like... Hired hand. Yeah. But he... Donner grounds things in emotion. Studio craftsman. Exactly. He's a great studio filmmaker. He does spectacle just fine. It would probably be... He would have made the most crichting version of it. A really fun movie. The Dante thing is interesting to me because I do...

[00:09:52] I have long contended that in particular Jurassic World feels much more like a Dante homage than a Spielberg homage. Mm. In a lot of ways. And... Yes. And it also is meaner than this movie is. Totally. So... Which feels like a misread of Joe Dante's anarchic humor. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um... The Burton... I mean like talking about all the sliding doors here. Burton misses out on this. Then is like, oh fuck but I would like to do a dinosaur thing. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:21] Then Warner Brothers gets the rights for Dinosaurs Attack. The Topps trading card series. Right. And that's how he found... In a bundle deal with Mars Attacks. Right. And they were like, let's do both of these. And then after Jurassic comes out he's like, I shouldn't fuck with dinosaurs. Let me just do Mars Attacks. Which I think we all agree is like better for the culture. That Spielberg makes... Right. ...Jurassic and he makes Mars Attacks. It's better that Joe Dante makes Matinee. Sure. And Spielberg makes Jurassic. Like, Joe Dante has made movies about critters run amok. Yes. So like...

[00:10:52] Yeah, I just wonder what his... But like I just would love to see a Joe Dante Jurassic Park. Joe Dante would have... Or a Jurassic movie. Yes. Like what if Joe Dante had made Jurassic Park 3? You know what I mean? Well that would have... Where it's like, hey, you know, can you just play in the sandbox and make a... A silly fun movie that's like not too... We don't have to worry too much about like getting this book right. Yeah. Because like Jurassic Park 3, which is a movie we both like... Yes. Is that... It's just, hey, Joe Johnson, you're good with creatures. You can do some action.

[00:11:19] Keep this movie fun and light and, you know, blockbuster. But Dante would have wanted to dig into the corporate element. He never would have made... Um... Why am I fucking... What's Attenborough's character's name? What's whose character's name? Richard Attenborough's character. Richard Attenborough's character. John Hammond. Thank you. He never would have made John Hammond cuddly. Well... Absolutely. He would have made him funny. John Hammond is a mean fucker in the book. Yes. He dies in the book. Spoiler alert for the book. Being eaten by compies who are not in this movie, but they're in the sequel.

[00:11:49] And thinking... Saving their stomach to eat Peter Stomare in the second film. But as he's dying, he's thinking like, fucking kids fucked all this up. Like he's mad about like the stupid kids that he brought to Jurassic Park. I think all the clamp shit in Gremlins 2 is in a way of vision of what he probably would have done with Jurassic. Which... It's still ultimately like, when you look at the obvious inspiration for that character in Gremlins 2, Donald Trump, like it's ultimately pretty benign. Who? Well, I said it. I said his name out loud on this podcast.

[00:12:18] But this is the key difference between, without calling out names, the director of Jurassic World and Gremlins 2. Where you're like... The satire in Gremlins 2 feels pointed without feeling like nasty. The thing is, I would argue that Jurassic Park is probably the hardest corporate satire slash, I don't know, finger pointing that Steven Spielberg's ever done. I agree with that. And it's right on the precipice of him becoming a genuine Hollywood corporate titan. A CEO.

[00:12:48] A 100%. Fascinating that he would... I mean, he is John Hammond in this movie, is he not? Let's call it another thing. At this point in time, I've said some variation in this stat many times on this podcast. But he signs a deal when Universal decides to transition from Backlot Tour to like full theme park, which obviously escalates with Jurassic. But when it's founded, it's like E.T. ride, Jaws ride. Like we're building this on the back of the Spielberg library. His deal is he gets...

[00:13:15] It's like 10% of all revenue every year in perpetuity. And they can't break the contract. So by the time he's making this movie and Universal's making the play for it, part of it is like, and then we can fucking put this in the parks. Does he still own a piece of that? Yes. So he's getting that Halloween Horror Nights money. Correct. I'm about to be there in like a week. Every park, every country. Wow. It's like we... Okay, so here we are on this podcast. We obviously, as we I'm sure discussed before... Our guest today is Sean Fantasy. Hi.

[00:13:45] The big picture. Our guest is Sean Fantasy, the king. King Sean. King Sean. I've changed my name to John Hammond. You have a little walking stick. Sean Hammond? We've talked about Steven Spielberg on this podcast before, his later part of his career when he is a CEO. And then when he's sort of an emeritus exec who still like gets that sweet, sweet Transformers money, but is mostly just like, I've always wanted to make a musical and I've always wanted to remake, you know, this.

[00:14:11] There have been a couple of these now with like, you know, it has happened only because of like big figures entertainment also getting into product lines where you have your like Rihanna's with the Fenty and the fucking Jenners with makeup lines or whatever. Sure, just Galba. He for a long time was one of the only like entertainment professionals who was also a billionaire. And it was because of all these deals that he's making money off anything connected to Men in Black, Transformers, things he didn't even direct. Right.

[00:14:39] Not to mention his own properties, not to mention Universal Studios deals, like all this shit. He leveraged something that very few filmmakers ever did, which is that everyone wanted him to make their movie. Yeah. And so he would grab a piece of it, even if he had no intention of making it so that he could produce it forever, which, you know, maybe only five people in the history of movies would be able to do in the first place. But he did it at the highest level of capitalism. I would also argue that for a long time, for several decades, his name above a title as Steven Spielberg presents, even if Nolan was tricked.

[00:15:09] Steven Spielberg is associated with this movie in the vaguest way. People are like, oh, well, then must be pretty good. People weren't even being tricked in a like Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas way. They were just like, he's co-signed this. That's good enough for us. We were raised on that. Yeah. Is he the first director's name you knew? I mean, probably. I think without a question, right? Like. Was the shorthand guy is the guy you make jokes about. You have to like pull a name of a director that anyone knows.

[00:15:37] But also like in the 90s, like half of the shows on Saturday morning, like television, the cartoons are Steven Spielberg presents. Yeah. Animaniacs, Tiny Toons. Oh, right. Freakazoid. Like he had like 10. Totally. Crazy. Deeper guy could get into Toonsylvania and pre-hysteria, but that's we don't, that's a whole other episode. So, Jurassic Park, I just, your point. Yes, I do.

[00:16:03] This is in a way, I'm looking at his later filmography, the most sort of nakedly spiteful about like capitalism and the sort of future of business. He never really does that. I think Ready Player One does that a lot. And I think that these two movies are capstones, right? Yeah. And I think Ready Player One, he is more like him at the other side of it feeling a little jaded. Sure. About what he half begotten, you know, like. But it's also, right. Yes.

[00:16:32] The Mark Rylance character being like, I just wanted to entertain people. I'm really sleepy. David. Can you go outside sometimes? I can't do his voice. You know he doesn't say it that clearly. Even if you don't have an impression. I think one is getting the same feeling. Go outside, baby. Like. Are you Ready Player One? And people criticize Ready Player One for like, oh God, they like, how dare this movie like invade the Shining and turn it into a video game level. And I'm like, I think Steven Spielberg is aware of what that's doing. Some people might disagree with me.

[00:17:02] I was gonna say, the characterization of like, you know, capitalist culture. I feel like this movie is inflating what he starts with Jaws. But Jaws is so micro. A town. A mayor. You know? It's not like a full multi-layered corporation. It's not this idea of like, spiting God. Money is a big concern, but in that movie it's more about preserving what already exists. Right.

[00:17:29] And this is about growth, expansion, reimagining what our life is and what the lifestyle of entertainment can be. So like, they are definitely in conversation with each other. But this movie, even though Richard Attenborough is so warm and grandfatherly. Yes. Everyone in the movie is like, what the fuck is your problem, dude? Yes. What are you doing here? This is a horrible idea, except for of course the blood sucking lawyer. Right.

[00:17:54] You know, who even, look, rewatching this, it's like, that character is far less two dimensional than I remember him being. Right. Every time I'm watching it, I'm like, oh, he's like a real person. The last couple of moments are him being shitty to the kids, which gives you just enough leeway to want to see him be eaten. You're right. It's sort of a bit of a permission structure for it to be okay that he dies. And Ariana Richard saying he left us is quite, it really cuts, you know, to the bone a little bit.

[00:18:23] Like her shrieking that you're like, Jesus. Like, even though you're also like, there's a fucking T-Rex. Like, what's he supposed to do? But like, compare that to the... The way Alan helps and all that. I was also going to say like, Bridezilla personal assistant in Jurassic World where you're like, Jannera's like a person. He's a human being. Yeah. Running away is a human reaction that is somewhat understandable. Here was my contention I set up and have failed to resolve with in the first 20 minutes of this episode.

[00:18:52] No, no, it's my fault. Please. I can't finish a thought. We did Dune on our David Lynch series, right? Oh yeah, right. That was a while ago. Yes. Excellent episode. John Hodgman. Get out of it. He really brought the heat. I love this show. I told you guys that. This is like my favorite show. Big Picture is my favorite show. David, what's your favorite show? The Low Post. Rogan? Yeah, Rogan. Shapiro? Who are you guys? WTF? Shapiro. Shapiro.

[00:19:22] I'm sorry. It's Talk Tua. It's added to Talk Tua. I'm all in on Talk Tua. Talk Tua is. We actually, we are pre-recording this podcast and we pre-recorded a podcast because my podcast partner had a child. Yes. We're on the exact opposite end of that. Yes. This is our first episode we've recorded in a while. You're coming back. We're off together. Yeah. We're off together. But we recorded a pod a few months ago that has like, like an extended Hawk Tua riff. Right.

[00:19:49] Like literally 40 minutes on Hawk Tua and it's not coming out until December. And you're like white knuckling. Like is she, will she remain? I think it's going to stay around. Will she be the vice president? You know, like what could happen here with Hawk Tua? Have you guys seen the photos that Spirit Halloween and this will be many, many months old by the time it's coming out. Spirit Halloween has a Hawk Tua end cap. Okay. It's not just that there's a Hawk Tua costume. There are like 10 different products. Are you serious? Yes. Jesus. What is the costume? It is. Are you ready? It is like. Yeah.

[00:20:17] It is like an auto mechanics jumpsuit and it's Hawk Tua auto lubrication. Spit on that thing. What? That's like a logo. But then they also have like shirts and like fucking party like decorations. That was like a meeting where they were like, we have one day to get this to store. Like we don't have a lot of time. Because what's the costume? It just has to have Hawk Tua on. The costume can't be her because she's kind of dressed generically. We have to create someone who exists in the Hawk Tua universe.

[00:20:45] That was figured out over lunch. Yeah. That was a quick little short meeting. That was figured out over like the water cooler. Anyway, I assume we now work for her. We do. Like by April, like she owns us. This is a Hawk Tua production. Right. Um, how did we get to Hawk Tua? Uh. Dune. You were talking about Dune. Dune. Dune. Finish that thought please. Yes. So I was like that movie comes out the year after Return of the Jedi. And we were talking about how in the wake of Star Wars there are very few attempts to make another Star Wars. They kind of don't start until later in the 80s.

[00:21:14] You have things like Zardoz and Krull and whatever. But people felt so intimidated by like how do you build an entire universe like this? That even though Star Wars is obviously the most seismic film of that decade. Like Jaws is the first like kind of classical blockbuster release. It sets the model and the marketing. And I do think that's the movie studios are trying to rip off more because it feels more attainable. Oh, get three good actors. You have one looming threat.

[00:21:44] You know, not just the shitty Jaws sequels, but all the things like Orca and whatever. I just think that becomes more even like the airplane movies are kind of trying to do something closer to Jaws, I would contend. And then like Raiders is absolutely something everyone's ripping off, even though E.T. is the bigger hit. Right. But also Raiders, I feel like is them being like, I assume if you're an executive at Rival Studio, you're like, what the fuck? That's what people want? They wanted like a rip roaring 30s like sand adventure.

[00:22:13] Like I didn't see this coming. I was making a space laser play or whatever. But also that the breakthrough there is that thing Spielberg says of like, what if you made a movie that was only the good parts? Right? Like the start of the like theme park cinema kind of thing. Yeah. My big contention about this movie that we're talking about is that it is, it is the end of something and the beginning of something and the thing that it is the beginning of is still not over. I agree with that. And I don't know when it's going to end. Yes. And maybe it will not end. Yes.

[00:22:41] But whatever Jaws started, which is, I think you described very well, which is sort of like this collection of actors, this sort of high concept, often like creature or fear forward, putting you through the eyes of a young child. You know, Spielberg invents a kind of American cinema. This movie is like the absolute apotheosis of blockbuster rising movies. And then because of digital created characters and figures, we're in like this, we're mired in the schmear.

[00:23:11] Like everything has just been a schmear in movies ever since this movie. I think it's fascinating that like everyone else would try to chase him. And then every 10 years, he'd come back and be like, I've come up with a new evolution of the thing. And you watch the response at the time and the things are becoming bigger and bigger hits. But critics are like, is he simplifying? Is he becoming more and more childlike? Is he becoming more populist? Right. We missed the like fucking Robert Shaw speech from Jaws. Where did the subtlety go? And then like this very year, he bifurcates, right? It's this and Schindler.

[00:23:40] You're like fucking Jaws gets a best picture nomination. Raiders gets a best picture nomination. They don't have to nominate Jurassic because they're like, oh, he is split off into serious Spielberg and entertainer Spielberg. And as we covered in our later Spielberg series that was done eight years ago, he like has this weird split where anytime he tries to make a movie like this again, it kind of doesn't work. And his big tentpolling movies tend to be the successful ones are the like Minority Report, War of the Worlds, like darker, haunted.

[00:24:10] Like he can't go back to just pure joy like this without it feeling a little, I don't know, like he's trying to chase his youth. Why do you think that is? Um, why do I think that he just like, not sours exactly, but curdles a little bit? Maybe because he did it better than anyone. And how could you possibly fall? But then again, he did follow it up with the Lost World Jurassic Park. And I feel like that's where he's like, you know what? Why am I trying to fucking do a better movie than Jurassic Park or what?

[00:24:40] Like, why am I trying to do that again? Like, what was I thinking? But that's the key difference. That's what this is the end of is like Spielberg is not really interested in chasing his own shadow in playing this game anymore. And then yet we are 30 years past. Everyone's still trying to figure out how to make Jurassic Park again, both literally and like generally. If you think about his career, right? Yes, you're right. This is the apex. Yeah. Once again, he's created the decade defining blockbuster. But then he also, he finally looked inside.

[00:25:08] He gave us a personal serious film that's also sweeping and epic. Right. It's not the color purple or Empire of the Sun where it's like, why are you trying to make a serious movie? Close but no cigar. It was the first time where everyone was like... You know, reverse engineer a serious Oscar winner. Right. He gets his Oscar. And then it's like, okay, buddy, what do you want to do? Yeah. He follows it up with like, I'll do that again, Lost World and Amistad. He takes four years off and then just does the same year again. I'll do the same thing. And everyone's like, not that. And he's like, you're right, not that. Right.

[00:25:37] I'm gonna do shit that's interesting to me. It does feel like basically after this, after that, after Lost World Amistad, he's like, yeah, I'll just, you know, I'll follow the things that are interesting to me. Exactly. Which is the end of the thing. But then the start of the thing is everyone else trying to make this. Right. But there's, I think there's a critical thing that happens between Jurassic Park and the Lost World, which is, you know, he co-creates DreamWorks and launches the studio. He doesn't make the Lost World for DreamWorks. It's still a universal movie.

[00:26:07] Right. But I think he's making another straight ahead blockbuster because he's like, I still gotta be Steven Spielberg for your gap. Yes. And then I still gotta hold on to this thing that is my iconography, my name above the title, like you were saying. Right. And I don't know. I've not been, I've never been a big Lost World person. No. It's a very flawed movie. I really don't think it's very good. Yeah. But I get why you did it. I get why you did it. We always say the same thing about it, which is it is one of the best directed bad movies of all time. Right. There's amazing set pieces in it.

[00:26:36] I kind of love the cast of it. Yeah. I don't even hate the premise. I don't love the third act, but like I don't hate the, you know, something has survived the sort of wild side island that's not a park. Yeah. Like that's cool. Good Arliss Howard. Enjoy his work in that film. Fucking great Arliss Howard. The apostle Thwaite in that film? Yeah. Absolutely. That's fine cut. But we, but we talked about that movie. Yes. And like, it's funny because temple of doom is also him being like, well, I, of course I can do a sequel. This thing is made for a sequel.

[00:27:05] And then everyone's like, we don't like this. Right. And. The thing I would argue he doesn't, he either doesn't know how to do again or he gives up trying to do is the, um, last crusade, which is like, guys, I'm sorry. Let me just give you a Spielberg right down the middle home run kind of thing. And like, from this point on, he, he either is like sort of, I don't know. He's not interested in repeating himself. Not too interested.

[00:27:33] And it feels like when he does, not that Amistad is like him repeating himself exactly, but it's a little bit him trying to make another Tony historical epic. He stepped outside of his comfort zone again. It doesn't work in the same way. But BFG feels like the clearest example to me of like, that's him making a movie that he's like Spielberg should make this right. And Crystal Skull. Yes. And I defend Crystal Skull, uh, in some ways. Yeah. Um, but obviously I think he's probably dissatisfied with Crystal Skull. Yes.

[00:28:03] And he feels like they want, Lucas and Ford wanted me to do that. So I fucking did it. Yeah. And there you have it. That's what I wanted to make. And it didn't really like go over. Yeah. And so when they're like, can we do another one? He's like, absolutely not. Right. Like I'm not, I'm done. Like, and that's him finally making that decision. War Horse is the other one that kind of feels like they were like, how can you not make this movie? Stevie. Come on. But that movie's good. Yeah. Good. Do you like War Horse? I do not. Yeah. It's not his best.

[00:28:33] No. Um. Some people get really mad at us for that episode where we mostly just dunk on how everyone wants to fuck the horse. We weren't dunking on it. We were celebrating. We're very. It's a hot horse. Sex positive. It's a hot horse. Everyone wants to fuck that horse. Um, I just, I look at this movie and I'm like, this still feels like the text everyone is studying when they're trying to construct their blockbusters. Mm-hmm. But nothing feels like this movie. No. I don't. Nothing feels like this movie. This is my wildest take. And I don't know if you guys are immediately going to push back on this or you're going to get where I'm coming from.

[00:29:04] I, I watch this movie now and I'm sort of astonished by how quaint it feels in certain ways. Whereas at that time, this movie felt like as big as a movie could possibly be. And now our movies have gotten so overly complicated that when you're like, this movie has like 10 speaking roles. Like it has ensemble cast, but there are no like unnecessary characters. It's, you're absolutely right. Right. It's such a strange movie in that sense that it is epic. Yes.

[00:29:32] Uh, and yet it's mostly set in like a couple of buildings, like sort of tucked away on this island. The modern version. In an empty, unopened, not ready yet theme park with a skeleton staff. It kind of has five sets. Right. Like this, it looks expensive. It still looks great. But I'm just like, there is a focus to this that is the Spielberg like problem solving clarity. Like the thing that he is best at is knowing exactly what the audience needs to focus on

[00:30:00] at any moment and cutting all the gristle and fat away from it to just like simplify the storytelling in any modern version of this movie. And I'm not just talking about a modern Jurassic movie, but any movie like this today, Samuel Jackson's dialogue is spread across 10 characters. Right. Right. And there is a clarity to the reason why we love Sam Jack in this movie and he makes such an impression is because it's one guy and that one guy is given the space to actually

[00:30:25] have like a personality and a feeling of like what this means to him emotionally versus like, you know, in the last Jurassic movie, like Caleb Heron, who's a very funny comedian, is like guy behind a computer for three lines. I forgot about that. And he pops up and it's like, oh, this is fun. They cast a funny person in this movie. And then he disappears. And you're like, if you're going to put him here, here's a distinctive person. Give him a lot to do. There's some really funny stuff in the last Jurassic movie.

[00:30:52] And I, you know, on the big picture, I'm, I guess, known for not remembering what happens in any of the Jurassic World films or the chronology. Weird, because they're very memorable. All the characters have names that we all know. I do remember in the most recent film, because there are so many characters, there's a sequence where like all the characters need to get from like one station to another station without getting eaten by raptors. And it's like 18 people walking in a line because they've introduced so many people. I would argue that this movie, one, I completely agree with everything you said, just like David.

[00:31:20] And by the way, at that point in the film, that's us dealing with the skeleton crew. Like they've whittled down the cast to only the 18th analyst. Many people have died at that point. Justice Smith has been like sidelined. I don't know if this is a good story choice or not, but the fact that so few people work at fucking Jurassic Park, it's like, it's a park full of dinosaurs and eight people work there. Like what is going on here? But I think that's... Should we be like, that's bullshit. There will be more people.

[00:31:46] Or should we be like, no, this is a story about like essentially a startup. It's a startup. Yes. Where they're like, ah, yeah, I don't know. We kind of like, as Malcolm said, we kind of backed into like, oh fuck, we can make dinosaurs be alive. But also the cold open of this movie is like 10 characters, most of whom we don't see again, who like don't talk. The movie does have the excuse of there's a hurricane everyone left. Like there are, when one imagines there are, there are more people that have left. I do, I, that's the thing.

[00:32:14] I do wonder if that was almost a strategic choice on his part to be like open with showing a full staff focusing on one specific area to imply at normal times. There's a little more going on. It does help the movie because it does reduce the number of people you need to remember and who is delivering the information. It helps a book too, because in a book, like it really, you don't want to unwieldy a group. Like, um, but I also think Crichton in writing this book is like, he's grinding his gears about like, you can't automate things.

[00:32:44] Like you can't just like, you know, create something like this and then just have a guy program a security system. Like, you know, he's got other gears. He wants to grind. Crichton on the right side of the AI debate. He is. I mean, Crichton is often on the right side of things, except for like, do women deserve to have a voice in society? And then he is dead raw. Because the whole thing with sphere is that the sphere brings your nightmares to life. We're talking about sphere. Yeah. Like it's like they find this, this weird alien crap. And his worst nightmare was Sharon Stone talking.

[00:33:14] Things start to truly go bad when the lady goes into the sphere. Like that's when it's like, uh oh. I'd like to circle back to disclosure. Why are there giant squints attacking us? Please, please. Just disclosure. Right. Yeah, that's a great. Disclosure. A woman rapes a man. Correct. Disclosure is like him being like a wonderful woman. Right. Dinosaurs, spheres. What's my worst nightmare? A woman in the workplace. Science run amok. The other thing about Michael Crichton is he's like 40 feet tall. I was like, I'm both of them.

[00:33:43] My other favorite thing is that his estate, and they probably will sue me for saying this, so maybe we should, you know, just put a little marker on this, man. Keep it in double. You know, made fuss about Noah Wiley's in a new hospital show. Oh yeah, I saw that. Called like The Pit. And it's set in Pittsburgh and it's like, it's basically just ER2. It's just like, Noah Wiley plays an ER doctor. Okay, get used to it. Sure. And Michael Crichton's estate is like, Michael Crichton created ER. So we get royalties from this too, because this is clearly just more ER. Uh huh. You can call it something else, but it's fucking more ER, right?

[00:34:14] Noah Wiley not allowed to play a doctor ever again. And it's like, bitch, you were a spec pilot in the 70s that then got turned into a TV show. You don't get to just own hospital shows forever. Can I play devil's advocate for a second though? Of course. Yeah. I am pretty certain that was explicitly. It was going maybe to be an ER like a sequel, right? I think it was explicitly developed as an ER sequel. Right. And then at some point they went, oh wait, how much would we have to pay the Crichton estate?

[00:34:41] Well, and probably not just the Crichton estate, but it's like, we reached out to Eric Lassau. You probably have to pay Spielberg. Yeah, but I'm just saying like fucking Gloria Rubin. Right. Hey, you want to come back? And she's like, not for nothing. The whole thing was just Wells and Wiley are back in the medical world. And I think at some point they did make the decision of like, if we shift this 10 degrees, it's a new thing. Does this mean that you can't play another intern without the Reitman family getting a bite at that apple?

[00:35:10] Like really, what are we talking about here? Yeah. Or just think about this. A movie about drafts. Rick the intern afterlife. Like think long and hard what you say here. No, I know. I know. Because this affects your future payday. I mean, Sean does a draft on his show every month. Do you think he owes? That's a good point. I have a right one to say it. Call me Jason. I think if I went to Montecito Pictures and was like, I want to develop a Rick the Intern legacy goal. He's now GM. He's running Isla Nublar. Right.

[00:35:37] And then at some point I like went to a different studio and was like, I have a pitch about a former assistant who then becomes a GM. Okay. But I had started the conversation properly first. That's the thing. I think if it was just like John Wells and Noah Wiley were like, you know, it'd be fun to just do a show and not have to pay the Creighton estate. Then Creighton's lawsuit would be kind of bullshit. I think they were talking with everyone and then sort of went like, you know what? We actually have abandoned this project and we have an entirely new idea. It's called The Pit, baby! It's called The Pit.

[00:36:07] Sherry Strinkfield still around? What's going on with her? Oh God, I love her so much. She was great. Dr. Lewis. She was wonderful. What a great show that was. ER is the greatest TV show of all time. I loved it. Along with the X-Files and Gilmore Girls. Those are the, and the Simpsons, obviously. First 10 seasons. And then I guess- Have you considered the Twilight Zone? Twilight Zone's a good shout. I was gonna say like, I guess like The Sopranos or whatever. You've made the case recently that Mad Men's the best. The Mad Men rewatch really- That actually is my favorite. I've seen that before. Yeah, that show really stands up fantastically. Yeah.

[00:36:37] But not as good of course as my favorite show, The Romanoffs. Bring it back! Did you finish it? What if I'm like outside- No, I did not. I didn't finish it either. Outside of Amazon being like, where in Romanoffs season two? I really just wish Matt Weiner would stick to movies. It's clearly where his voice plays the best. Where is he? Are you here? You are here. Where is he? Great title. I have no idea where he is. I mean, The Romanoffs is the last thing he did. And that was six years ago, seven years ago at this point.

[00:37:06] Anyway, Jurassic Park. Jurassic Park. It's a film in 1993 that Steven Spielberg directed that was quite successful. It was the highest grossing film of all time for a period? It was absolutely the highest grossing film of all time and was beaten by Titanic. Yes. It beat- I think it took the record from E.T. That sounds right. I think E.T. had been the reigning champ for essentially 10 years. Yes. Like, I don't think anything beat E.T. Well, you're forgetting- I do believe in 97 earlier- Like Star Wars would- Star Wars jumps back up. Re-release and bump itself back up, sure.

[00:37:35] Six months of being number one again before Titanic is the iceberg to that film's dreams. And, yeah, Jurassic Park. And Sean likes it and he selected it when we said we're doing Steven Spielberg. I did. Kind of a risky choice. Was I the first claim? I think you might have been. Did I get first shot? Yeah. Probably. My memory of your text was 50% of my personality is liking Jurassic Park. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is. Kind of have to do it. Yeah.

[00:38:04] And we were talking about Lynch. Yeah. The other 50% might be liking David Lynch. Sure. So, I was forced to choose. But honestly, I take full responsibility for my bad Jurassic Park podcast however many years ago that was. You chose wisely. So, I'm happy to be here with you doing this. Well, this is the correction. How old were you when this movie came out? I was 11 years old. Kind of in the exact sweet spot? I changed my life. I changed my life. You were in the exact sweet spot. Yeah. I actually don't know if there's a better age.

[00:38:30] I read the book before the movie and did the thing where I was like, whoa, this is not like the book at all. Yeah. Probably the first adult book that I ever read. Yeah. And it was such a sensation. I mean, it's extraordinary. Like, that book was in every store. It was in sneaker stores. You could buy it everywhere. And still, the movie just took my breath away. Yeah. But I'm with you. Yes, it was that one of those early things where I was like, I can tell you what's different about the book. Sure. Like, you know, like, oh, in fact, right, Hammond is kind of a jerk in the book and Malcolm

[00:39:00] dies in the book and all that. But it's one of those things. Am I wrong about this? I mean, we have the dossier right here. I'm going to open it up. But the movie was so fast-tracked off of the idea that they're making the movie at the time that the book is being published, basically. Possibly. I think they're adapting it off of the manuscript. Yeah. It's certainly right. The writes were done and dusted before the book came out. Ben, did you see this film in theaters? I did. You did? Yeah. How did it feel?

[00:39:29] I remember just being like dinosaurs. They're alive. I can see them. It was mind-blowing. It was really, because I as a kid, and I assumed like, this is like very much a boys thing, but growing up, I was obsessed with dinosaurs. My daughter is obsessed with dinosaurs. So it's not just a boy thing. Okay. Sorry. Dinosaurs are very, very cool when you're a kid. They're very cool. It's a kid thing in general. David's daughter is particularly obsessed with one dinosaur. I don't know if you've heard about this. The good dinosaur?

[00:39:57] She was briefly very obsessed with the good dinosaur. I've noticed you an increased number of logs of that film on letterbox. Well, David's just working on his book, bitch. We should do a 33 and a third style, you know, monograph. It's called the best dinosaur. Good dinosaurs and better dinosaurs. That movie is such a baffling series of artistic choices.

[00:40:19] Can I just say, one of the big things I really want to talk to you guys about is how this is actually the only good movie about dinosaurs. Which is just remarkable because of what Ben just said. I think such a good one. Which is every kid loves dinosaurs. Yeah. Maybe you like The Lost World? Sure. People will defend Jurassic Park 3. I like the Jurassic World movies are huge. Let's just set aside the franchise for a second. Set aside the franchise. This represents all, you know, the- I've got a list up. I'm just going to yell some titles at you. Okay. Okay.

[00:40:49] 65 recently. Not a good masterpiece. Where it was like, Adam Driver goes back in time and he shoots dinosaurs. I was like, this is going to be good, right? That movie is unfortunately a dud. Somehow not even a 65 out of 100. Not even close. Can I add one caveat before you continue to go through it, David? Godzilla is not a dinosaur movie. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. Godzilla does not count. No. The Flintstones. Now, you know, the Flintstones, they use dinosaurs well in that movie. Dino's very good in it.

[00:41:16] If someone said, give me the list of the 10 best dinosaur movies, how many movies would you need to name before you got to the Flintstones? Three? I'm struggling here. I'm on Jay, Journey to the Scent of the Earth. I guess that has dinosaurs in it. I mean, the King Kong movies have tangential dinosaurs. I guess you could call those good, but they're not really about dinosaurs. But they have dinosaurs. I think they make the 10 and dinosaurs aren't top build.

[00:41:40] You could argue that dinosaurs are the most interesting thing in the history of this planet. There's a reason. They stick around. We are fascinated by dinosaurs. The two coolest things, and they're things that kids tend to be obsessed with, right, are that, one, dinosaurs once walked the Earth. Giant monster lizards were top of the heap. We didn't exist. Their bones are huge. Right, and we can find their bones.

[00:42:08] One, two is like there are planets in the sky circling around us. One's red. Right. One is yellow. Where you're just like, did a kid come up with this idea that there's just like a blue one and a red one? But so much of that is still speculative. Like the planet stuff is still futuristic because we don't have like commercial travel to those planets. The dinosaur thing is so wild when you think about how overwhelming a concept it is. But it's presented to kids as like, and by the way, this is like done deal, settled matter. Yes. Millions of years ago.

[00:42:36] They're not coming close to your front door. Okay, there's like one million years BC, right? There's like the sort of old kind of adventure. The original Lost World. The original Lost World. The argument is a lot. Right. There is some sort of time for God is another one. Ray Harryhausen styles. Yeah. But like, are those really, are those good movies? Like they're certainly memorable. They're not great movies. They're good. They're fun. It's fun to see the dinosaurs in them. That's what they got. I also don't think his best films are his dinosaur films. No. No, I agree. It's like Sinbad. Sinbad. Totally.

[00:43:07] Transformers, when they have dinosaurs in them is pretty good. Well, those have Dungno bots in them. And I mean, one of my favorite line reading of all of Transformers. Is Stanley Tucci as Merlin? No, he's good too. But is when the dinosaur, when the fucking thing turns into a dinosaur the first time. You mean when Grimlock turns from robot mode into beast mode? No idea what you're talking about. And Ken Watanabe, who is of course voicing a samurai transformer, which we forget about. Not ideas. What's his name? I don't know. Stop asking you what their names are. I think it's Autobot Swift. I think it's Autobot Swift.

[00:43:37] Says, I was expecting a giant car. That line always gets me. That's good. It's so funny. You know who's a good guy? It's such a weird moment of self-awareness where I'm like, the fucking samurai bot is like, don't we turn into cars? It's so close to his name. It's not Swift, but it's like that. Drift. Autobot Drift, maybe? I don't. No. Did you see Transformers 1? I haven't yet. I've been away. You liked it, right? I did like it. Autobot Hound is not in it, right? That's my guy. His character is named Drift. Okay.

[00:44:06] I have also not seen it, but I do like Josh Cooley, who made Toy Story 4. I thought he did a nice job of it. I really liked it. And it has one of the great third act, it's all happening moments in recent movie history. Is the second best dinosaur movie The Land Before Time, the Don Bluth film? That was going to be my take. Maybe. Is that probably like the second most iconic dinosaur movie in a way? Here's what is really damning. Disney's Dinosaur is a mortal lock for the top 10 and that movie is boring as hell. Right. Both.

[00:44:34] And that's I think what Sean is talking about. It's like there have been two bites at the giant CGI dinosaur movie Apple. Both times you're like, well, that's a good idea. Yeah. This is perfect because Dinosaur is so hard to accomplish this. Do it animated. Both movies stink. Yeah. But isn't that just even more of a testimony to the amazing power of Jurassic Park? They were like, we don't even, we can't do anything. So I won't harp on this because we covered it in our Lost World episode years and years ago. But I think the reason this movie is not as like a totemic and formative for me as it is

[00:45:03] for many in my generation, the generation before and after is my parents are super overprotective, did not let me see this movie for years. Oh, for years. I saw Lost World in theaters as my first Jurassic and that blew my mind. Sure. And I think that movie having the impact of like, holy shit, I'm seeing dinosaurs on screen. Yeah, you were like eight when that movie came out probably. Right. It took that juice where I have that memory of seeing that and feeling like it was one of my

[00:45:30] first like kind of scary blockbusters I was allowed to see. And I had that holy shit, it's on a big screen. Where then later I came around to this. Yeah. And then I clearly was like, well, this is better. But I didn't have that sort of key emotional discovery. It makes sense. This is like a Jurassic Park by comparison to the Lost World is just weirdly restrained and small. Which it doesn't, it didn't feel that way when we were kids. No. When you watch it now, like you were saying before, like not only are there a few characters,

[00:45:59] but you're on an island. You don't even really fully understand the geography of where you are. Sometimes we go to a new place and we're like, what building is this? Yes. And how far away was it? And what, and oh, they're reunited. You know, like the mapping of the movie is actually a little bit confusing at times, but it all works out. I mean, there are a lot of Spielberg sheets in this, which he like openly talks about where it's like the spatially things change to benefit him in a sequence if he needs them to be. He will go against how things were previously established.

[00:46:29] But it's insane how quickly they get out of this movie. It is. The premise of this movie is so massive. Yeah. And it's interesting that fundamentally it's a movie about like, they take one ride on the ride. Yeah. It goes really wrong. They leave with two deaths. And the ride is a backlight tour. It's a slow trek. Right. It's a Six Flags Great Safari. Three people die in this movie, right? Wayne Knight, Samuel L. Jackson, and Bob Peck. Well, show some respect. Ray Arnold.

[00:46:59] No, and Gennaro too. Gennaro. Oh, The Lawyer. Okay, so there's four deaths. The book has a couple more extra ones that they cut in this. Plus that guy who gets eaten at the beginning of the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whoever that is. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your work. Raptor got him. But like, this isn't even a total like sort of slasher film of like, only fucking Alan and the kids make it off or whatever. No. You know, it's like most of them leave being like, whew, that actually we shouldn't do that. Like, you know, like a lesson learned. Like, geez, that sucked.

[00:47:29] Yeah. And none of the main characters died. And... No, I mean, famously, Ian Malcolm was supposed to die. Yes, he dies in the book. Right. And was supposed to die in the script. Yes. Was originally in production. The plan was to have him die at the moment he gets trapped underneath some bamboo. Right. And while filming, they were like, we're gonna fucking kick this guy out of the movie? HelloFresh. You get it? Like HelloNurse from the Animaniacs? Oh yeah.

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[00:49:56] Okay, let me, I'm opening the dossier. Okay, Michael Crichton. He was a doctor, became a novelist. He's very tall, rodeo. He was short, he became tall. Didn't think women should talk too much. Okay. Wrote lots of books. 1980, he writes Congo. Mm-hmm. But, and sort of stops writing books for a bit and more turns to film. Will ride for the film for the rest of my life. Congo. I insist Congo is good. Congo is fun.

[00:50:23] I have seen it so many times, and I know that it is wildly considered a huge, it's considered a huge misfire. Yeah. I love it. It is my friend, one of my best friends, Alex Perlin, shout out Alex Perlin, who I know listens to the podcast, is a lawyer, is a public defender. Congo is his favorite movie of all time. Probably shouldn't be revealing that. He might get disbarred. Possible. His bachelor party was watching Congo. Where? That's awesome. We went to Ample Hills. We had their ice cream making class, and then we went back to his apartment and watched Congo on VHS.

[00:50:52] That's a very wholesome bachelor party. He's a very wholesome man. Sure. Can I just, I don't want to belabor this, but Congo, directed by Frank Marshall, written by John Patrick Shanley. Yep. Who only writes normal movies. Obsessed with writing normal movies. Alan Daviau. Yeah. Edited by Anne V. Coates. Yep. Incredible cat. Like Laura Linney, Bruce Campbell, Ernie Hudson, Delroy Lindo. Ernie Hudson is really fun in Congo. Tim Curry, Herkimer Hamoka, you know? Delroy Lindo, like one of the best one scene performances. Anyway, the point is-

[00:51:22] Stop eating my sesame cake. He has made me really love Congo through his eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, Crichton turns to making movies. He's made, he made some pretty good- Coma is a fun movie. Yes. Great Train Robbery. Yeah. Never seen Looker or Runaway. No. Those are both, uh- Tom Selleck? Yeah. I, there, Looker looks kinda cool. Looker's good.

[00:51:51] Very normal feelings about that. Um, uh, but then in 1983, he thinks of this, uh, this idea as a screenplay. Sure. He's like, I'm not gonna write a novel. I want, uh, to turn that into a movie. Let's also acknowledge, uh, Westworld and Future World have already happened in the 70s. Yes, absolutely. He's already set up this theme park that goes wrong thing. Um, and, uh, he said his approach to writing the story was initially about, like, the person doing the cloning in secret. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:21] And he couldn't find a way in, and he kinda put it aside, and then he was like, no, this needs to be about, like, the environment where people are interacting with dinosaurs, right? Mm-hmm. He didn't wanna do it in, like, dinos in New York City. Sure. He wanted it to be in, like, sort of the natural world. Uh, and then eventually, he's like, I'll write a book. Like, that's, whatever, that's his way in. And he thinks about the theme park idea, which, of course, he had done with Westworld. Right. So, he's incredibly prolific from the 60s through the 70s. Yeah.

[00:52:49] And then 1980 Congo, 1987 Sphere, 1990 Jurassic Park. Right. He, like, slows way down. Yeah. Uh, some of this bumps up against the timeline as established in, uh, JJ's dossier, which I fully trust. I'm just going to repeat what I heard and try to make sense of it relative to this timeline as explained. I went to a very bizarre event some years ago that was a 92nd Street Y talk for the release of Michael Ovitz's book. Sure. His memoirs.

[00:53:18] In conversation with Bill Murray. Cool. His favorite client he ever had, he decided to have moderate. Even though Bill Murray is famously someone who has not had reps for 35 years. Right. But Ovitz, I think, was his last rep he ever had. And Murray asked him at one point, uh, like, what is your proudest accomplishment of your entire career? And he said, getting Jurassic Park out of Crichton. And he unpacked that to say, like, Michael Crichton basically had writer's block for most of the 80s. Which I believe is true. Yes. Yeah. At least novel book. Yes. Right.

[00:53:48] And like, could not get something figured out. I, it makes sense that Jurassic was something that had been floating around in different forms. Mm-hmm. But then this final breakthrough of like, he's figured out how to frame this story. And that the second, like, he says to Ovitz, here's the pitch, DNA, dinosaur theme park, Michael Ovitz like rubs his hands together and goes to everyone and is like, I have the greatest project of all time incoming. Right.

[00:54:14] Spielberg, of course, crosses paths with Crichton on ER, which was conceived of as a film. And Spielberg helps pivot that thing to a TV show that was mildly successful. Mm-hmm. Uh, being sarcastic, it was hugely successful. Yeah. Later inspires The Pit, America's most successful TV show. Um, and that is at one point, Crichton's like, yeah, I've finished this book about dinosaurs, Jurassic Park, it's getting proof by publishers. He gets the early tip off Spielberg. And Spielberg's like, uh, would love to read that. Yeah. Dinosaurs? Sounds cool. Yeah.

[00:54:44] Um, and now Crichton claims that, uh, he basically was like, I don't want to get into some bidding war. Like, if you want to make it, like, let's make it. But... And Michael Ovid said, I would love to get into a bidding war. Let's make a bidding war start. As we said, Warner Brothers, Tim Burton, Columbia, Richard Donner, Fox, Joe Dante, like the, all these studios, uh, enter a bidding war for the rights to that movie. James Cameron also claims he tried to buy the rights. Makes sense.

[00:55:12] Can, can, can, can I just pause you for one moment? Please. What would be the contemporary version of the spitting war? It'd be like, okay, so are we trying to think of like, filmmakers who are allied with this just like Villeneuve and WB, right? Yeah. Or Villeneuve and Legendary. So it's Chris Nolan and Universal. Sure. Chris Nolan and now Universal. Villeneuve and WB. Tarantino and Sony. No, I'm joking. Um, would watch it. Yeah. Sure. No. Okay. But like Villeneuve. Your question is who would be the people pitch for the project if Jurassic Park, the galleys were hitting. Look, I love it. It's Villeneuve and WB. Yeah.

[00:55:42] It's Nolan and Universal. Disney is like, I don't know, one of the fucking Contiki guys who made Maleficent 2. Who now also directed Tron. Yeah. They keep being like, it's one or two of them. I can't remember if they work together or not, but like they, those guys. I truly could not tell you if one guy has been making all those movies they've been switching off. Paramount would be like Kaczynski or something. I was going to say Kaczynski for Apple, but, or Apple or whoever. But Kaczynski doing Tron, you know, that all. Right. Right. Netflix is like our new chat bot will be directing this.

[00:56:12] It would have been Netflix putting forth Russos. Yeah, the Russos. And now I feel like the Russos have, well, I mean, fucking, the Avengers 5 and 6 being Agbo productions is fascinating to me. The fuck is Agbo again? That's a production company. Agbo is their production company that they were like. Why is that fascinating to you? Because that was like a fucking name they used in their improv and sketch troupe in college that they found a funny last name and the. Gun to your head. Yeah. Avengers 5 and 6, will they be good? No. Ugh. I don't think so.

[00:56:42] I mean, maybe you'll be wrong. I just think that they, I think it's, I think it's gotten unwieldy. I don't think there's any way to focus things back up. Um, but all I'm saying is. There's ways, but I don't know if they'll pull it off. No, their whole thing was, oh, we got funding. We're going to be our own studio. Like they were trying to almost do something closer to DreamWorks, making stuff for the streamers and whatever. Yes. And going back and doing Avengers could be seen as some admission of failure. Oh, we got to go back and play by someone else's rules.

[00:57:11] Part of the announcement of them coming back quietly was these will be an Agbo co-production that Disney and Marvel were so desperate to get them back that they're cutting the company in on it, which is kind of unfathomable. It is a big thing to cut them in on. I will not defend any of the other things that they have worked on, but those things that they made with that company. Yes. I like that. The Avengers. I like those. And I, I really like it. Yeah. Um, James Cameron. Yes.

[00:57:40] Uh, says when he saw the film, he realized I was not the person to make it. Mine would have been more like aliens with dinosaurs. Uh, dinosaurs are more for kids. He made a movie for kids. His sensibility was right. I think I would have been too nasty. Yeah. Classic James Cameron, like weird big dick, like backhanded compliment shit. But, uh, right. Like James Cameron's always doing that. I'm too much of a big boy for the shit. My favorite thing is how he correctly injected himself into the implosion of the submersible. He's like, yeah, I knew that fucking thing. Who cares?

[00:58:09] Fuck that guy. I don't think of the other people would be though, that they like put forward. There aren't. Yeah. Now I just, Villeneuve Nolan, those things are very obvious in terms of who wants to do a big scale thing. Uh, there's this guy, Colin Trevorrow. I mean, he's a real like home run. Trevorrow. Trevorrow. Sorry. Um, anyway. Uh, you know, like borrow ideas from other people. Right. Or like subborrows. Yeah. Spielberg said he liked dinosaurs a lot.

[00:58:38] His favorite dinosaur movie. The dinosaur. Oh, right. Fucking timeline. He's like, King Kong is certainly the, like the T-Rex in King Kong is the cinematic dinosaur I remembered best. Uh, when I read the book, uh, the Crichton book, it flashed back to Jaws for me. Mm-hmm. I was a huge Ray Harryhausen fan. I always thought about like, you know, making a movie like that. But he also said, I'm trying to make a good sequel to Jaws. Mm-hmm. It's shameless. I can tell you that now. Mm-hmm. He said that to the New Yorker in 1994.

[00:59:06] That he is kind of admitting like, yeah, this is kind of in my continuum of like creature feature. Yes. Right? And the cast is broader, but you do have the kind of core trifecta thing. Yeah. A hundred percent. Right. Like three good character-y actor people. Yes. Rather than like, you know, lunkheads. Because it's one of the most fascinating sort of what ifs with this movie is when Universal spends a bunch of money to buy this for Spielberg, their immediate thought is like, oh, Harrison Ford and Sean Connery is Hammond. Right.

[00:59:34] Like this should be the most all-star A-list movie possible. And Spielberg's like, shouldn't we spend the money on the dinosaurs? Like just get good actors, which was basically the Jaws formula. Mm-hmm. Three people who were not obvious leads for a blockbuster. But I also think both of those movies, this movie and Jaws have the thing that's also the core thing that has always made Star Trek work. A lot of the great like franchises, which is like you basically have it ego, super ego. Right.

[01:00:00] You have three fun characters that all represent the sort of corners of the site. Absolutely. In how to address a humongous problem. Right. Yeah. There's a big shark. There's a, there's a, there's a quote unquote casting. What if that I think materially explodes that though. Go ahead. Which is? Kurt Russell. He would be so fucking good. If it's Kurt, if it's Kurt Russell in the Sam Neill role, it's a totally different movie. It is. And I think, and I love Sam Neill in this movie. Maybe better.

[01:00:28] Because Kurt Russell on an adventure, there's not anything better in movies. That's a very fun movie. I just think that this movie is really special because of Sam Neill because that's, it's such a curve ball to have that guy in that position in the movie. That's like this guy where you're like, huh, I'm rooting for this guy. It's not like he's tremendously unlikable. Right. Sam Neill's a good actor. He's got a good presence, but you are like, wait, this is the hero?

[01:00:56] And then, you know, he's kind of introverted. Like, you know, like, I don't really want to talk to people or like, and not in like some squirrely like Newt Scamander way, just in a sort of like, don't get me started on Newt. Because like when Newt Scamander, who I think about a lot, I'm like, this movie is setting itself the immense challenge of like someone who doesn't want the camera to be pointed at him. Can't make eye contact with people. Can't look at anyone. Who's hiding in his coat at all times.

[01:01:24] And like, oh, what an interesting challenge to have someone the most unpersonable guy like be the hero. I think Kurt Russell in the Dante version. Kurt Russell, he'll be like, come on guys. Yeah. That's like, that's harmonizing. Right? Don't move. Right. I think Russell would have been a little too winky in this in a way that would have been fun if this was the version we had. I'd be like, he's great in this. But there's something about the like earnestness of Sam Neill of him not being the kind of guy who you're used to existing in this kind of movie. Him being a little bit like cold and thorny.

[01:01:54] This is like, but this is tombstone breakdown. Eric Kurt Russell. I know he's very serious at this time. He's really good at this time. But I think I agree with you. I agree with you. Do you not think if you put him in this movie with Spielberg and you're like you're reacting to dinosaurs? He starts to go a little Jack. He might he might and it's a different movie. And I think everything David just said is bang on like Sam Neill makes the movie totally unique. Yeah. And unusual.

[01:02:22] And his evolution as a character is a big part of why you get emotionally connected to the movie. But I just see Kurt Russell. I'm like, damn, he's like taming dinosaurs. I want to see that. I want to see that today. I mean, the third thing like fucking Jurassic Park. But by the way, the third thing Alan does apart from learn how to put on a seatbelt and learn how to connect with children is he fucking fends off the most direct assault on his girlfriend by the sexiest man who ever lived. That's right. Ian Malcolm is like suddenly training his fucking missile sights on Laura Dern and Sam Neill's

[01:02:52] like waving him off. This is one of those rare examples of a performance that is like so parodied, so impersonated, so memed and you watch the real thing and you're like the real thing is bigger than anyone else's interpretation of it. It's a very big performance. It's astonishing. It's so clear that Steven Spielberg wants to fuck Jeff Goldblum the way he films him in this movie. Yes. I mean, the way with the light behind him. Yeah. It's so funny that they eat their Chilean seatbacks in what seems to be like a black box theater

[01:03:21] with like perfect spotlights illuminating all of them. It's such a weird setting. This viewing I've really actually took in that scene and like it's bonkers. It's bonkers because a lot of Jurassic Park is set in like an office with computers and like a kind of chintzy Disney world-y kind of yeah. And then that one scene Spielberg was clearly like no, let's light the shit out of this dining room scene. It's so funny because it's of course this is Dean Conde, the great Dean Conde. Brilliant. The collaborative John Carpenter as well as Steven Spielberg.

[01:03:51] The Wicketeer. What's Wicketeer's last name? My joke is that Dean Conde looks like an Ewok. He does. But he's doing the fucking pools of light thing that Spielberg's gonna like take to the ends of the earth with Janusz. Yes. And Schindler's the first Janusz. This is the handoff of course. This is the handoff. This is when Janusz is gonna take over after this one. I mean all of the sort of like correct decisions of Spielberg reads this book.

[01:04:18] He's like, oh, this character feels a little bit like Brundle from the fly. Cast Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum's like, I've kind of done this before. Wouldn't it be funny to play this against type? This guy's a rock star. Right. And they're like, oh, that would be fun. This is the guy who'll give you the color in the first 40 minutes of the movie and then he dies. And then they're like, we cannot kill this guy off. He is really being introduced to someone you're like, oh, I'm excited for this kind of jerk to die. Right. Like he's so high on his own supply.

[01:04:43] The 30 minutes of him just aggressively trying to bed Laura Dern is the kind of plotting you do when you're like, and by the way, this guy's gonna be dead in two minutes. Yes. We're going heavy on him right now. Literally the drops of water on the hand. Totally. In that sequence, you're like, it's about to be curtains for Dr. Ian Malmott. This is his final moment. Yeah. And there's something about the way he plays him. It's the weird magic of Jeff Goldblum where you're like, this guy's a creep and I kind of have no problems with it. But he's just like, in any other setup, everyone is rooting for this guy to be kicked out of the movie. He's the only character though who's written with any panache.

[01:05:13] Yes. None of the other characters' lines of dialogue have personality. But that's the- They're machines to push the story forward. The judgment on Goldblum's part, and who knows how much of it was motivated by ego and him being like, I want to be cool. Mm-hmm. But there's a story sense here that is very smart of like, everyone else is just kind of doing their job. And Hammond, who's the only other guy who's sort of getting some joy out of it, is trying very hard to do this avuncular Disney thing. You do need someone who's got swagger. Yeah. He pulls it off.

[01:05:42] He's on fire. He's on fire. It's an incredibly impressive and obviously iconic performance. David, on your spreadsheet, do you have any acting nominations for this movie? I was literally, Griffin, having the same thought. I was watching this being like, I bet David gives this one supporting actor nomination and I'm trying to figure out who he would pick. I have Jeff Goldblum. Okay. Yeah. Ralph Fiennes, Schindler's List, Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park, Tom Lee Jones, The Fugitive, Val Cameron, Tombstomping, Kingsley Schindler's List. It's a pretty, pretty, pretty good five.

[01:06:11] It's a pretty boring, but pretty good. Yeah. 1993, man. Great year for movies. Yeah. I do- Piano, Age of Innocence, Groundhog Day, Schindler's List, Naked. Incredible year for Sam Neill. Yeah. An incredible year for Steven Spielberg. Sure. Laura Dern, this is only three years after Wild at Heart. Yep. Which we've covered semi-recently. Yeah, and she's only what, like, she's very, she's quite young. 25 or something. She's 24, 25 in this movie? Right. Yeah.

[01:06:38] Someone who started out as a child star, really started acting in her teen years, is then sort of like a young adult star. The shift to this movie, you're like, oh, this is an adult person. Yeah. Like, from this movie on, Laura Dern is permanently 45 years old. Right? Because of how they style her, and now her style is so cool, but I think at the time, she's trying to, they're trying to style her older. Yes. Right? Like, she's got this kind of, like, professional sort of workman-like, you know, thing going on with the khakis. But she has the gravitas. I'm saying she pulls it off. Oh, yeah, of course.

[01:07:07] How many movies do we see like this where you introduce a 25-year-old and the movie says like, this is the smartest scientist in the world. And you're like, this is a child. Oh, shit. Straight off CW. This is Hawk Tua. Come on. Right. She's not a paleo botanist or whatever the hell. If the timeline was shifted nine months, Hayley Walsh would be in Jurassic City. Right? If that happened nine months earlier, or Jurassic City filmed nine months later. Wait, is that what the movie's called? No, now it's called something dumb. It was, Jurassic City was the working title.

[01:07:36] Now it's called like Jurassic World Revival. It is so fucking funny that they were like, we're going to make a Jurassic Park movie. And you're like, you are? And you're like, yeah, we fucking made it. It's got Scar Jo. It's probably fine. It's coming out tomorrow. Yeah. Anyway, Jurassic Park. Go ahead. Laura Dern is only 57. This is the thing because- She started out very young. And she's so young in this movie. Yeah. She's very foxy in this movie. I don't know what to say. She is incredibly attractive. She's just really cute. She's just really cute. Have you seen the meme about how she sits down?

[01:08:05] Oh, yes. Where she goes like- Yes, at the table in the dining room. Very, very interesting choice. All right. Back to this dossier. Okay. Michael Crichton- But another incredibly bizarre choice for this film. Michael Crichton, we're on the script. We're on the script. Spielberg's like to Crichton, like write me a script. It won't be the shooting script or anything, but can you please just take the first pass to turn this into a movie? Sure. Crichton agrees. Then Malia Scotch-Marmo, who co-wrote on Hook but doesn't get a credit on it, comes aboard.

[01:08:33] She says her big contribution was fleshing out Ellie Sattler and the kids. Uh-huh. And then David Koepp, who had written Death Becomes Her for Zemeckis, is brought on board. And he is the one who's like, we need to have this Grant character have more of an arc, and it should be the kid thing. Yeah. Because that is not present in the books. In the books, Alan Grant has no problem with the kids. Like, he's not like, oh, these fucking kids.

[01:09:02] That is them going from like, eh, he kind of has a chip on his shoulder about children for whatever reason, too. He loves these two kids is David Koepp's big idea. Not to do endless comparison point here, but it is astonishing how relatively understated his arc is compared to, say, Jurassic World, in which characters keep on calling up Bryce Dallas Howard on the phone and saying, when are you going to stop focusing on your job and have kids? Why do you keep running this dinosaur park when you should give birth? Right.

[01:09:28] Like, it's one of the things I find most fascinating about this movie is every time I watch it, I have a different interpretation of Sattler and Grant's relationship. Okay. What is it right now? Right now, I think they have- And stuff only. No, I think they have slept together intermittently a number of times and have never been fully committed, but have never had a conversation about whether or not they're committed.

[01:09:49] That is how I take it, is that they are romantically involved because they work in this bizarre field where all you do is like sit in a trailer in the Mojave Desert or whatever scraping bones. Yeah. And he's handsome and she's beautiful. Scraping bones scraping. And so they do a little bone scraping. But yeah, like he's too emotionally stunted to be like, would you like to like get married or, you know? Right. She's dating a much older guy who is emotionally much younger than her. Who's intellectually very impressive and was like, what if dinosaurs were birds? And everyone's like, oh.

[01:10:17] And it's what I think is the nuanced version of this is like that it's not like she's like, why won't you settle down and have kids with me? The idea of kids sort of represents like, when is this guy going to like- Grow up a little bit. Diversify. And it takes Malcolm being like, I marry a new woman every year and she just jumped to the top of my list for Grant to be like, uh, hello? Yeah. You know, he doesn't even like say like, we are dating. No.

[01:10:44] He's just like, yeah. When Malcolm's like, are you two? And he's like, yeah. And like that's about as much as he can describe it. But that's- Right. Exactly. Right. He can't go further than that. Right. Because it's a PG movie. PG. It is a PG movie, which is insane. Or is it PG-13? I think it has to be PG-13. Yeah. It might be PG-13. The gold? It's PG-13. In Britain it was PG. Wow. I remember that. In the United Kingdom of Don't You Dare. And it was a little surprising. It's because this movie is very intense. It is. And it has a severed arm in it. It is.

[01:11:13] Let's also just, to the point of that conversation, call out, not the rating, but the relationship dynamics. Yeah. Goldblum and Dern date for a while after this movie? Like, the scenes you're watching have the juice of, this is actually working? Yeah, for sure. The hand, the water on the hands, I'm like, they're about to fuck. They are moments from fucking. They call cut. Both of them are going to the same trailer. She's giving him none of, she's giving Sam Neill none of what she's giving Jeff Goldblum

[01:11:43] in this movie. No, with Sam Neill it's more of a like, aw, Alan, you sweetie pie. Goldblum just looks so fucking hot. He does. Insane. It's crazy. It's just so good. The shot of him with his shirt open and he's laid up and he's greased up. It's crazy. What? It's like professional wrestling or something. And I'm sure there are people in 1993, because like in 1993, I saw this film in theaters when I was young. And then I see Independence Day when I'm 10. Right. And I'm like, yeah, well, Jeff Goldblum is like a movie star from movies that I see. I know that.

[01:12:09] But there must've been so many people going to see this movie being like, wait, this sort of squirrely guy from like fucking Buckaroo Banzai and the big chill and the fly is like now like Earth's hottest. I have a very distinct memory of my father. Yes. I'm sure your father was activated by this. Yes. Lost World's opening weekend when it had the biggest opening weekend of all time. Uh, or maybe when it was at the end of its run, but on during its box office run saying to me, you ever think about how weird it is that Jeff Goldblum's in three of the highest grossing movies of all times. Three of the big ones.

[01:12:39] He was like, that's just weird. Um, and Jurassic Park Independence Day in nine months. Holy man. Holy man. Holy man was huge. People forget that. So Kep says his approach was, yeah, throwing out details. He was like, the minute characters started talking about their personal lives, you don't care. You're like, I want to see dinosaurs. Right? One of those funny little tidbits that like BD Wong is one of like five solo cards. He's on the billing of the poster and it's because they cast him while they were still

[01:13:09] adapting it and his character so big in the book that they were like, well, he'll be the fifth lead. And then it ends up being one scene, but the contract was locked in. And like the other thing about Jurassic Park is that like, it's, it's not really a fast paced movie. No. As much as Kep is saying, like I simplified, I took things out. But the movie has an incredible amount of setup to the point of now I love the first 45 minutes of Jurassic Park. I love to like luxuriate in it. Yes. But if I'm watching it for the first time, I'm probably like, can, can we get to the

[01:13:38] dinosaur antics? Yeah. And now you watch it and you're like, this movie is explaining every single fucking thing to you that you need to know for the last half of this movie to be perfect. It's inception shit except it's the thing that makes Spielberg the king is he knows how to do this in a way that doesn't sound like an info dump. Yes. And also in inception in act three, he's like, uh, three other rules. I forgot to mention, but like, this is such here's how limbo actually works. I mean, you guys know where I stand on. Yeah. It's just movie. That does not make sense.

[01:14:07] Uh, unlike Mr. DNA, who does a wonderful job of making us understand in clear terms, what is at play in the film Jurassic Park. But that's perfect Spielberg magic where he's like making a joke out of the fact that he needs to stop the movie for four minutes and explain the science using Greg Burson's voice. Right. Who is like a legendary animated voice actor. The animation itself is great. Spielberg's idea. This is what it would be in this reality. This is how to make it palatable to the audience. You're on tour. It's like you're at the park on tour. Right. It's a brilliant idea. Yeah.

[01:14:37] Laura Dern says she was making a film called Wild at Heart, which we discussed on this podcast not that long ago. And she told Nick Cage, who she had just worked with on Wild at Heart, they want to put me on the phone with Steven Spielberg for like a dinosaur movie. So it's like a straight jump basically. I mean, which makes sense, right? Yeah. And Nick Cage says, and I love this, you're doing a dinosaur movie? No one can ever say no to a dinosaur movie. And she's like, what? And he's like, it is the dream of my life to do a dinosaur movie. It makes so much sense that Nick Cage in 1990 was like, if you don't fucking get this movie,

[01:15:06] I'm going to put on a blonde wig and say I'm Laura Dern. Has, I mean, this is fascinating because Cage also at this point in time is kind of stuck dead between Ian Malcolm and Alan Grant. He could be Malcolm. He could be Grant. He could kind of do either. But he's kind of, he's not quite, he's not right. The energy the movie arrives at for sure. But has he ever gotten to act with a dinosaur? Surely he has. Well, he did pay $276,000 for a dinosaur skull. Of course. Right. He's gotten to live with a dinosaur. That's right.

[01:15:35] He has dinosaur skulls in his hole. Where is your dinosaur skull here in this wonderful studio? It's a great fucking question. Where is it? I'm still looking for it. Can we budget for a dino bone? Well, now that we've done this episode, it could be a business expense. Oh, absolutely. Write it off. So- Are you looking up if Cage has ever been in a movie with a dinosaur? Oh, I wasn't. I'm sorry. I can if you want. I don't believe he has. That's kind of crazy if he's- I can't think of one. Yeah. Yeah, he should. Okay.

[01:15:59] William Hurt turned down Alan Grant in one of the more insane decisions of his life possibly. But- A hundred percent. Like, he makes sense. I would also contend, like, he's ten percent colder- I agree. ...than Sam Neill. But, like, at the time, that's a very logical choice, right? Oh, totally. Kurt Russell and Richard Dreyfuss were both deemed too expensive. Uh-huh. Because this movie was- The budget's going elsewhere, folks, right? And Neil is brought in last minute.

[01:16:25] Uh, Neil says, like, you know, he was going to a job and was basically told, like, Steven Spielberg needs to talk to you in, like, half an hour. Mm-hmm. And two days later, he had the part, and three weeks later, he's in Hawaii, like, making Jurassic Park. Yeah. Um, Jeff Goldblum- I assume mostly being cast off of, like, Dead Calm? Yeah, I- He was a guy. Huge Possession fan. Yeah. Maybe not Possession, but, like, the Omen movie. Right, I'm like, what- Which is bad, but he's, you know, kind of what makes it interesting. I'm saying Dead Calm just because it was a little bit of a crossover.

[01:16:54] It was sort of the timing lines up. Like, what was the- I think it's that and Red October, maybe. Sure. Mm-hmm. He's a face, right? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's interesting, though. It's like, I don't know why he had juice. I mean, look, we've covered a certain amount of this run-up. He's tremendously good in the fucking Carpenter movies, and Piano, obviously, is the same year as this. Right. Like, it's one of those perfect storm moments where he just fully transcends. Right. But yeah, he's a very odd choice for this.

[01:17:26] Um, Goldblum, Janet Hershenson, who cast this movie, read the book and was like, I'm seeing a Jeff Goldblum for this role. Now, Jim Carrey read for the part and they really liked his, like, audition. Mm-hmm. And that is another fascinating fork in the road to imagine. Yes. But, uh, Goldblum was pretty much always their first choice. Mm-hmm. And, uh, Steven at one point during the meeting said to Goldblum, like, there is some sort of idea of maybe we just merge it. Yeah. And then we just merge the Alan and Ian characters into one character. Yeah. Like, why do we have these two leads?

[01:17:56] Like, syncing out loud. Right. And Goldblum fights for his job. And Goldblum was like, don't do that. Yeah. Like, that's a bad idea. I know what to do for this character. Make him different. Like, you know, don't make me just like the hero of this movie. Because one of the problems with Lost World is he has to be the hero. Yes. And he has to, like, deliver lines of dialogue, you know, like, that are just explaining shit about what's going on with dinosaurs. And you're like, that's not what he's here for. He needs to be the chaos element. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think he might be maybe one of the best bad boy scientists in all of movies. I mean, put forth a competitor.

[01:18:26] Like, who even comes close? Who's the rival for that throne? Uh... This is basically him defining that as the type that everyone else tries to figure out how to put in their movie. Yeah. I mean, Dr. Frankenstein, he was kind of a bad boy scientist. This is true. Dr. Evil. He's kind of a bad boy scientist. That's a good one. Dr. Strangelove, he was kind of a bad boy scientist. What about Dr. Strange? Do you know that in... Dr. Strange, certainly. In London, a city that David Sims once lived in... True. Mm-hmm.

[01:18:53] There is about to open a staged adaptation of Dr. Strangelove, adapted by Armando Iannucci, starring Steve Coogan. Yep. I was made aware of this by our friend Tim Simons. That is kind of wild. Sounds fun. We covered... You were our guest on that. I was. I wish them all the best. That's a huge swing. It should not be touched, Strangelove. Probably not. It is a moment in time movie that should not be touched. If anyone were to try to touch it in a different medium and format, those two guys working together make a ton of sense, but it is certainly a huge, huge win.

[01:19:22] Did you guys see the franchise yet? I have not watched the franchise. No, is that... No. Yeah. It's either swings or... You know, he hits or misses. Like, it's... Yeah. I wanted to figure it out. I hope they let him do a third TV show that has a very expensive premise. Rather than just like... Perhaps a dinosaur show. Yeah. So, John Hammond is a more straightforwardly greedy character in the book. Sure. Spielberg is like... Can you make him a little more like sort of Steven Spielberg-y? Like, he's dreaming of a utopia and it slips through his grasp.

[01:19:52] And a little Walt Disney. Yeah. Very Disney-esque. I think Richard Attenborough is brilliant casting. I think he's incredible. Agreed. He is obviously being cast sort of as a guy that Spielberg probably looks up to some extent. Like, in Gandhi beat... I mean, I was gonna say... That's the most interesting part. ...E.T.'s ass Raw at the Oscars. If you like think about them probably spending that awards season... Yeah. ...crossing paths over and over again. Obviously, the gauntlet of like fucking awards campaigning was not what it was back then. Sure, but nonetheless, he's a young gun and Richard Attenborough is the only pro. Right.

[01:20:20] Richard Attenborough is a great actor, you know, who then becomes a incredibly medium director. But at this point, he had not acted in a long time. Probably not. Am I wrong? He has a sort of second wind after this. I think he's great casting because he's got the, you know, Santa Claus energy that was then immediately, literally turned into a Santa Claus movie the next year. Yes. But there is an element to him where you're like, this guy is tricky or like, there is a little darkness to him. I can't quite guess at that.

[01:20:49] The Brighton Rock, Ten Rillington Place. Yeah. Like, there's something sinister. He is so fucking hot in Brighton Rock, man. I also think it's that classic like film director thing where like all great film directors are kind of manipulators. Yeah, yeah. There's a little bit of like sweet talking, saying different things to different people to get what you want. Yeah. You're right though. It had been 14 years since he had acted in a movie when he became- What was his last? It was The Human Factor, the late Otto Preminger movie. Wild.

[01:21:11] You know, he's really good in the movie and the movie's ultimate take, yes, is like, he's a great showman and he just wanted to put on a show and he really just didn't know what he was doing. Right. He didn't know what he was thinking, putting live fucking dinosaurs in the same place as people. Which basically feels like the entire entertainment industry is now run by John Hammonds who don't know what they're doing. Right. Aren't thinking about the consequences. Right. Or they're just, yeah, I mean, well, there's so many jokes I could do. Right.

[01:21:37] And, uh, like, I do think this is like a movie about like late capitalism, right? Or whatever, like that, like, I'm not sure Spielberg is saying that when he's writing the script, but this is a movie about like the end stage of capitalism where like, where we have the money to do this, so why wouldn't we do it? It'll make money. And it's like, because you have no control over this whatsoever. But also like weaponized, monetized perma-adolescence.

[01:22:02] Like this is one of the movies that starts to create the world that we all are guilty of living in, of just like constantly being obsessed with the things that we grew up with. It's like the fucking Edmund Hillary, you know, whoever said, uh, like, why do you climb Everest because it's there? Right. It's like, why, why would you make dinosaurs? Well, we can. Right. Someone else is going to do it if we don't do it. Let's do it. But also, isn't that what every kid has dreamed of?

[01:22:24] Like, shouldn't I spend all of science, technology, all of the financial capital in the world to make little boys' dreams come true? I want to be on the record. I think we should make dinosaurs. I wanted to have this conversation. I kind of think we should. The critical dynamic of the movie is at that dinner table scene, which is so beautifully lit. Yes. Dr. Ian Malcolm keeps pushing on Hammond and saying, you know, you spent so much time thinking about whether you could, you didn't think about whether you should. It's an iconic speech.

[01:22:52] And, and, and obviously Ian Malcolm is, is the seer of this film. And he understands from the moment that he gets there, this is a bad idea. And that's, the book has the dragon spirals, which is like him. The dragon spirals? Like a dragon spiral. I swear I've talked about it before, um, on, uh, this podcast, but it's like a dragon curve. Sorry, is what it's called. It's like, if you just make draw a line and then you draw a left and then right, you know, like you keep, eventually you make these shapes that you would never see coming. Oh, sure.

[01:23:21] This is like fundamental chaos theory shit. Okay. Where it's like, you cannot predict where this is going. Right, right. And like the first chapter, you just see a little curve and by the later chapters, there's a little picture of a dragon spiral. Because the idea is, it's like, they never foresaw X, Y, Z. Sure. But so that's what Ian Malcolm is putting forward. We're not chaos theorists. We're not DNA geneticians. Well, I dabble. You consider him Professor of Chaos. Honestly, that is true. Um, he's not Professor Crispy. He is Professor Chaos.

[01:23:50] Should we, should we make, Ben wants to make dinosaurs. Like I think we should make dinosaurs. Yes. I don't think we should. And this has always been my contention is. What could go wrong? Talk about how few good dinosaur films there are. Right? Yeah. It is the struggle every one of these sequels has had is like, this is the ultimate one movie concept where you want to believe that all the characters walk away from it and have learned their lesson. Right. And society at large learns their lesson. I'm a big defender of the Terminator franchise constantly repeating the same mistakes.

[01:24:19] Because I think that speaks to something more fundamental, which is like the abstract idea of technology helping us. You could keep falling into different traps with that. The dinosaur thing is so specific that we're supposed to believe that every four years someone else is like, I think I know how to do it right though. It's really funny in Jurassic World when they're like, let's do a pterodactyl. Yeah. What could go wrong? I think that's the dumbest idea in the history of time. The thing where it's like, build a net, I guess, around the whole park. It's a force field. Yeah.

[01:24:49] No, we should not be making dinosaurs. But if you do want to make dinosaurs, please do make it on fucking Isla Nublar, far away from me. So they can't come here. What if they're small though? Then we could come back with them. Now you're talking about Pre-Historia. What's that? It's the Charles Band Full Moon production where it was a little stop motion dinosaur. You know what I'm talking about? The Pre-Historia franchise? I do. With the kid from last action hero. The hero. Film series you might enjoy. The villain of this movie is Wayne Knight, Dennis Nedry, who is just like this.

[01:25:19] I mean, again, as written by Michael Crichton, this kind of like slovenly disgusting person. Right? Like Crichton is clearly so kind of like, ugh. But it's also, it's like, he just doesn't have enough money. Richard Attenborough keeps sort of alluding to like personal choices that led him into that. Which I love. We don't know what that is. What do we think it is? But also there's the thing with the- He sabotages the park because he needs money. He'll have enough money for new glasses. That's the funniest part when he's sliding down the mountain. Getting the guy to pick up the tab, right? Yes, that's such a good-

[01:25:47] For his pie where he's like, don't skimp out the way Hammond has. That's how this happened in the first place. There's a dual pronged thing of like, Nedry's bad with money, but also Hammond's maybe underpaying everybody. And I wrote this take on the Atlantic years ago, but the hero of the movie is Ray Arnold, Samuel L. Jackson's character, who is just fucking doing his job. Yeah. He's trying really hard. He's trying to do this version of a job anywhere. His job is running a large sort of organization security system park, right? He could do it at Disney World.

[01:26:15] He could do it in a non-entertainment function. He got the fucking dinosaur park, right? Like that's the job he ended up getting. He's also doing it humanistically. This is what I'm talking about. His character working. Exactly. It's like every decision you're watching filter through a human face with thoughts and feelings. There is no- Well, filtered through the end of a cigarette. That's true. I mean, it's a perfect performance. There is no line from him in this movie, Ray Arnold, that's like, but isn't it cool that like, I run the fucking T-Rex pet? He doesn't give a shit about that.

[01:26:43] And then late in the movie, Ian is like, hey man, can you go to the other end of the park and fucking turn the lights on because we turned them off? And he's like, yeah, sure. I'll get my jacket. Yeah. And then he dies off screen. And like- Right, which I believe there was a full written sequence. They meant to film his death. And like, this is another thing that makes this movie so different from all modern blockbusters is Spielberg still had to deal with limitations. Right. There was like a storm and it messed with things. But they were just like, we're not giving you extra days. Yeah. That scene is cut. Figure out which scene you want to cut.

[01:27:12] And obviously we just see his hand, but there's such a tragedy to like, yeah, man, he was literally just here to make all of the things run in this absurd, stupid enterprise. I love that solution though, to just have the hand land on the floor and the shoulder. It's such a good solution. Because it's pure like universal monster movie, you know, or you're just like, oh my God. Which the movie is, you know, you were saying that it is and it isn't, but it is a movie that he watched on TV when he was seven. Like that's clearly what he's going for here.

[01:27:40] And like three or four things burned into his brain forever and haunted him for the rest of his life. Pulp Fiction is the year after this. Correct. It is. Sam Jack is so good in this. He's amazing. Yep. Still in his pure character actor mode before Pulp Fiction. He'll do anything. He'll do anything. Right. As much as he's had a few kind of like splashy performances, this is still, this guy's versatile. He's just, he's like a five tool player actor. He'll do whatever you ask him to do. Right. The next year he's codified into Samuel L. Jackson. Yes.

[01:28:10] And anyone who is hiring him wants a little bit of that. Even if he's playing against type, you want some of that. Like this is the last moment when he can sort of play this role the way he does. He never worked with Spielberg again, right? Which is fascinating. Yeah. He should work with Spielberg again. That is interesting. Like right now. Yes. Why not? Right. Yes. And it is one of those things where everyone's like Samuel L. Jackson, the highest grossing star of all time. Like Jurassic Park is just like a fucking footnote on that list. Anyway. He doesn't swear.

[01:28:39] It's weird. This is what I'm saying. He says butt. Okay. He's like a very button down, tired, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like focused. It's like how Jeremy Piven was bald before he had hair. Right. Like Sam Jackson looks older in this movie than he does in later movies of the 90s. Well, it's the opposite Piven. He's got hair in this. Yeah. I guess he has little hair. But you know what I mean? Yes. Like, you know, he hasn't like kind of clammed up, you know, to like, anyway.

[01:29:02] Uh, some of the other casting decisions, Ariana Richards, she's told this story a lot, but like they just brought her to an office and they would just scream, please. And her scream was the only one who woke up Steven Spielberg's wife from the couch. Wow. Joe Mazzello, who had screen tested for Hook and was a little too young for it. He's just got such a sweet face. Yeah. I've always really liked him. I do too. Like now as a grownup actor, he's still got just that sweet face.

[01:29:28] But he, off of this, this is like Kubrick sees this and is like, here's the guy I can make AI with. And this is when Spielberg starts getting involved in AI. Absolutely. It's all on the promise of like, Mazzello's my robot. Um, Wayne Knight, as you said, Spielberg says he watched Basic Instinct, waited for the credits to roll and wrote down the name Wayne Knight. He was basically like, what's the name of that guy? Yeah. Can we just like step through the Wayne Knight 90s very quickly? Please. Because even just the fact that he's like ping ponging between Mad About You and Seinfeld.

[01:29:58] Yeah. That he's jumping between two NBC sitcoms that are like within the top 10, or not Mad About You, I'm sorry, Third Rock from the Sun. Third Rock from the Sun, yeah. But like two huge sitcoms without getting tied down to like series regular contracts. And your beloved Toon Sylvania. Yeah. Well, which he's great on. He plays Igor. He does. He closes out the decade with Toy Story 2, probably the greatest villain in cinematic history. He's really good in Toy Story 2. Even though it's basically just like, yeah, can you do Wayne Knight? Like, you know, that guy. But that's the thing.

[01:30:23] Like from this point on, they're just sort of like, I think this is the movie that makes everyone realize they should be using him as a voice actor. Right, right. He's got a great voice. You like, yeah. Like. He's amazing in JFK. JFK, Basic Instinct, like Dead Again, Jurassic Park. I mean, I'm skipping over some other things that don't really matter. I mean, Space Jam, I think is where most kids from that time remember him. That was my activator. To die for. Then it's like, right, he's in Hercules as a voice. Yep. He's in Tarzan as a voice. He's the villain in Toy Story 2.

[01:30:53] Like that's just triumphant. He was the voice of the Zoot Suit in My Favorite Martian. Well, of course he was. Remember that? Yep. Do you remember that? I don't know if I ever saw My Favorite Martian. It's not good. That was my birthday movie. Really? Yeah. Unfortunately. That was when no movies came out in February that were worth a damn. Rat Race? Yeah. He's fun in Rat Race? Uh, yes. What is he playing in Rat Race again? I don't know. Can't remember. Oh, Jeff Daniels is the lead of My Favorite Martian? Yeah. Yeah. And Christopher Lloyd.

[01:31:22] Elizabeth Hurley. It's not good. I think he hits Rowan Atkinson with his car in Rat Race. I think that's his role. Like you do. Uh, so, Dennis, uh, he plays Dennis Dendry. Anyway. He's phenomenal in this film. Uh, they filmed the, uh, movie in, uh, Hawaii. Uh, they wrapped 12 days ahead of their 82-day shooting schedule. Despite them fighting, like, horrible, uh, weather conditions. Right. Insane. Yeah, exactly. Yes.

[01:31:49] They were using, like, the prop helicopters to actually get people off the island to safety. They lost the set. Right. Like, yeah. Um, film is budgeted around 65 million dollars. People claim it actually went way over. Mm-hmm. We'll never know because who cares? Like, it made fucking billion dollars, basically. Right. Um, uh, Spielberg had gone way over budget and schedule on Hook. And I think was, like, really intent on, like, I am not doing that again. Yeah.

[01:32:15] Um, and, uh, every action sequence had been storyboarded, like, two years before. Mm-hmm. And Spielberg says that's why we didn't go over, you know, over schedule. For sure. Like, we were just, like, really on top of all that stuff. And, uh, obviously the big sort of behind the scenes story with Jurassic Park is the, the blending of classic animatronics and CGI, brand new CGI technology.

[01:32:40] What was supposed to be animatronics and GoMotion Phil Tippett's proprietary stop motion process. Right. And instead Phil Tippett, um, fuck, I was gonna make a joke about his poker face episode, but then I forgot what happens in it. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. They build a bus that they have to scan to get the eye contact of... Don't remember. Okay. Um... Yeah. Yeah. No, Phil, Phil Tippett, who had created GoMotion, which, uh, like, Ed 209 and, um, the Tauntaun

[01:33:08] and Empire Strikes Back and, uh, had sort of figured out this evolved form of the Harryhausen craft that also involved, like, uh, motion blur, uh, allowing you to photograph stop motion in a way that more seamlessly allowed it to integrate with live action elements. That was the plan. Stan Winston will build these full body things for close ups, for heads, whatever. Right. And then Tippett will do all of this. And I think they were using ILM for some amount of pre-viz. Yeah, a little bit of CGI is gonna blend in there, but that's it.

[01:33:38] And Dennis Mirren is like, I think we can just fucking make dinosaurs now. Well, they're the two guys, Spaz Williams, brother of Harlan Williams, creator of Puppy Dog Pounce, and the other guy's name is Mark A.Z. Dippy, who later goes on to direct Ben Spahn. Cool. And he did a perfect job. They're the bad boys. And it holds up beautifully. They're the bad boys of ILM. Yeah. The, uh, the Kazdin ILM, uh, miniseries on Disney Plus, if that hasn't already been Zazlav'd off the service, is incredibly good. It's very good.

[01:34:07] And gets into this in depth. But these two guys were like, we think we can fucking crack the code. Right. Have you seen Jurassic Punk? Do you know about this? No. It's a documentary about Steve Williams. Okay. And it chronicles from his perspective. Yeah. Everything that transpires as ILM is starting to make waves.

[01:34:25] And you know, Mark and Steve are, you know, Dennis Mirren won a lot of Academy Awards, but they are largely credited with effectively like, I don't want to say inventing, but executing what becomes the template for all digital animated figures in movies going forward. Dennis Mirren, like, co-signed. He backed them up. He supports them. Right. He like builds this system for them at ILM. But they made all the breakthroughs. And Jurassic Punk's, you know, Steve Williams has had a remarkable flame out in his life. It's like kind of a sad story, but. Both him and Dippy now have just gone on to make shitty animated films. Yes.

[01:34:55] That's interesting. Like, Dippy directed the fucking Pete Davidson Marmaduke movie. Yes. And they talk about that a little bit in the documentary. And it's very sad, but. Right. Not even the theatrical Marmaduke. The other one. No. And did like four direct-to-video Garfield movies. He did. Garfield's Fun Fest, Garfield's Pet Force. And Williams did The Wild, which is like one of the most forgotten films of the two-thousands. Do you think when they were talking to each other though, Mark A.Z. Dippy was just like, what I really want to do is not real Leguizamo in.

[01:35:24] Just get that guy on the hook and then let go. Sorry. Yeah. Um, uh, those guys. I just think this is like one of, this is part of the reason why I'm like, this is the beginning of something. Yes. Because these two guys come up with this idea that convinced their boss that he should pitch it to Steven Spielberg. And his boss effectively pitches it to Steven Spielberg, which then more or less sidelines two of the most significant creators of on-screen effects in the previous 25 years. Tippet and Winston. And Tippet and Winston. I mean, this is the peak of Winston's work.

[01:35:53] Tippet famously is the one who said, I think I'm extinct. And they put that in the movie. And has talked about, I mean, there's an incredible documentary about him as well. But he basically had like a full on existential crisis about this. Spielberg saw that he was spiraling and basically was like, well, you know what? But they don't really know how to animate. Made him the choreographer. Right. They don't understand performance yet. So you, it became the stop motion was used basically as previs for them to recreate in CG, which kept him employed.

[01:36:20] And then he just pivoted to like, I guess I got to learn computers. I particularly like what Spielberg tells the animators, which is that Tippet understands how dinosaurs move. Yeah. Which is like, no one does. Like we don't know for sure. It's all made up. Like this is just, we hope this is how dinosaurs move. I also, here's what I contend. You watch Tippet's work and you're like, yeah, this guy does understand how dinosaurs move. It feels that way. I'm not even talking about this film, but you're like, watch Empire Strikes Back and you're like, fuck, he understands how a tauntaun moves. It's true. You're like, tauntaun's not a thing. You're a hundred percent right.

[01:36:50] He made it up, but you see. He makes the movement feel realistic for the body we're seeing, right? This like oddly shaped thing we're seeing. And when people talk about like, why is Jurassic Park still more effective as a special effects movie than most films we see today, 30 plus years later? I think the answer is that you have this melding of crafts that you have like Winston at the top of his game, Tippett at the top of his game and ILM like starting to push through something new.

[01:37:14] And those three concentrations meeting in the middle synthesized to like a really strong language of performance for how the dinosaurs move. One thing that I want to say about this rewatching the movie in 4K. Yeah. I also watched it in 4K. The daylight sequences. Look bad. Don't look good. No. The nighttime sequences. Yes. Look incredible. You mean the CG specifically. Especially Neil going to the Brachiosaurus where he's kind of gesturing at clearly nothing. Exactly. Because like the inverse of most movies now.

[01:37:42] Things in the dark now look terrible. Terrible. The lighting is horrendous and the digital rendering is awful. Yeah. In the day, actually like when you're watching a Marvel movie, you're like, oh, these guys are fighting. Yeah, they're fighting. And it's a fascinating inversion of what we expect. Totally. And you always are told like, oh, why does everything look dark and bad? And like, ah, it's CG shit. And you're like, but that's not what I was raised learning. I was raised learning like Star Wars looked best against the black of space. Exactly. And it was harder for them to do Hoth and stuff. I know that's pre-CG.

[01:38:09] And I think it was like Williams and Dippy went to Spielberg and were like, it's going to look better if you do like night. It's going to look better if you have rain, if we can have this deflection. Like they all strategize together. But there's such intentionality to how those sequences are organized. But I do think when you see the sick triceratops on the ground and this incredible full body animatronic, that's like a jaw dropper. It works completely. All of the animatronics are so good. It's like the most magical moment of the early daylight section.

[01:38:35] But then when you get to like nighttime raptors and T-Rex, the CGI becomes like extraordinary. But like they built a gigantic hydraulic T-Rex, obviously, that is so cool. They built raptor suits that people are inside of. Right. They're using every technique. The Dilophosaurus is this amazing creation. Like that's just the rig of it in the car with the frill, like it's so cool. Um, it's like you say, it's just, it's, everyone's at the top of their game. It's kind of like Total Recall. We talk about that with Total Recall too.

[01:39:04] Where you're like, this is the peak of this kind of like effects. Yes. Uh, that soon will be dying. Like, this are practical effects. There's a shot that I never processed fully that just kind of knocked me out watching it this time. Where it's one of the shots in the T-Rex nighttime barrier sequence. Where it starts with the animatronic head, like kind of coming right up to the window. And then pulls away. And then within the same shot without an edit, it transitions to being a CGI T-Rex.

[01:39:32] Like he knows the blind spot that allows him to basically do the Texas switch between the two. And you buy them being the same creature. Spielwerk. Yeah. That guy's good. And obviously, famously, he finished editing this film, but post was not done. They had to do lots of effects and he just starts doing Schindler's List and would like color correct this movie at night. Insane. Over satellite or whatever. Right. Completely insane. He's kind of said that's one of the things that helped him from like totally falling into the depths of depression during Schindler. Yes. That there was some kind of balance.

[01:40:02] Um, and then he goes to John Williams and John Williams is like, yeah, I can crank out some bullshit for you. He literally sparks out this theme. He literally sparks out this theme. I think the music, so obviously John Williams' music is most important to Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Right? Indiana Jones. And Indiana Jones. Right? Yeah. And this one, in some ways, his theme is kind of incongruous with this movie. Yes.

[01:40:27] Because it is this triumphant theme for a closed shitty theme park that goes wrong at the first death. But that's why it's important because like the theme is like, this is the projection of what Hemant thought this would be. The majesty of it. A hundred percent. You watch the T-Rex sequence, which I feel like people agree is like the high point of the movie. Right? Sure. It's just kind of, yeah. There was no music in that entire sequence. Of course not. It's all the roaring. It plays to silence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:40:52] Like there aren't even really like that many instances of Williams doing like a tension theme in this movie. It is like, but yeah, definitely not. There's sort of like, this is the Jurassic Park entrance gates music. But the movie is, it does have, we're getting to the island, we're leaving the island. Triumph is essential for both of those things. So it's a very unusual score for him.

[01:41:15] It's very, very brass forward, very trumpet forward, which is not something you usually, it's not as symphonic as a lot of his scores usually are. And it does seem like it's like taking the piss, I guess, a little bit. Yeah. I don't know if, did they have a conversation about that? Was he just like, here's what I got for you, good luck? Like, I'd like to know a little bit more about how they landed on this style. It's very unusual. It certainly sounds like that's what the last 20 years of their relationship has been. I don't know when that starts, where Spielberg's like, I just trust you.

[01:41:43] I think it's a little bit of that. I mean, I think he wanted to convey a sense of awe, clearly, right? And wonder, which he can do in space. Oh, Superman is the other one. Oh, sure. Those are the five where you're like, like, I mean, the whole thing I think with John Williams, with Superman as well, is what Bryan Singer does Superman Returns. He's like, I'm just doing the John Williams music again. Yeah. Like, I don't want a new score.

[01:42:08] I would contend that it's not one of his best scores, but like, in terms of... Catch me if you can. Well, no, that is one of his best scores. That is one of his best scores, yeah. No, what I was gonna say is like, Home Alone might be the movie... Oh, 100%. ...where his score adds a full star. It does. It's so weird. It is the most transformative. But that's another one where they're like, so this movie is about a little fucking eight-year-old beating the shit out of Joe Pesci with, like, Pesci with metal. If that movie doesn't have that score, it doesn't work.

[01:42:35] Shall I conjure Christmas on a crisp December night, like, for you? Right. Perfectly, so a tear freezes on your cheek? He single most... Powerful musical embodiment. You realize that he's just, like, shooting marbles at a criminal. But this is what I'm saying. If it doesn't have that score, that movie's a disaster. You're right. And E.T. is like a masterpiece, even if it doesn't have a single second of music. Oh, E.T., I forgot about E.T. This is the thing! What's the matter with me? That's more important than any of the other ones. Except for Jaws.

[01:43:04] Jaws is the most important for Star Wars. The craziest thing about his career is that he was making film and TV scores for 17 years before Jaws. So long! Yes! And then Jaws, he's just like, doo-doo, you know? And Spielberg's like, I'm paying you a salary! What is this? Yeah. And he's like, no, it'll be good. And then George Lucas is like, you're the doo-doo guy, right? Can you do, like, maybe just, like, bring back Aaron Copeland for my sci-fi movie? And he's like, yeah, sure, in my fucking sleep. Also, JFK. Oh, such a good score. Incredible. They're into Mr. X.

[01:43:33] We had this conversation, Griffin, when he got that Indiana Jones and the clock bullshit store. Yeah. You know, he got the Oscar nom, and I'm like, oh, the Oscars are so lazy, and they put that on, and I was like, this is an 11 out of 10. This goes. Absolutely amazing shit. I know there was a lot of sort of autopsying of the underperformance of the Mangold. Jurassic Park and the circle of nonsense. No, no, no. I was gonna say. Indiana Jones, sorry. Right. And the circle of nonsense. I think calling it Indiana Jones and the clock of bullshit might have been where they

[01:44:03] went wrong. That might have been a thing that turned off audiences. Can I be honest? Indiana Jones and the clock of bullshit. Let me just be honest. Five comedy points. I liked it. You liked Dollar Destiny? I liked it. I don't really care for it. I'm gonna get back to it soon, but I did not love it. I think that it has flaws. I like sections of it. And these sections I don't like turn me off so hard, even more so than Crystal Skull, which is also a movie I like sections of. I basically love Crystal Skull.

[01:44:30] And I think Crystal Skull really, on rewatch, really eats Dial of Destiny's lunch. I agree with that. A lot of choices are made that I think are interesting in Dial of Destiny is light on choices. The thing I like about Dial of Destiny is the last act, where there are finally some choices. Yeah, I wish the last act was like the second act. Yeah, and maybe the first act. Yeah, I just think the last act is like as bold a thing as you can do in a movie like that. I think the last act is really interesting. But I think when we have like Phoebe Waller-Bridge in a fucking casino with him, I'm just like, this is like from Solo. Yeah.

[01:45:00] You know, this is just like knock off, like, right, like just like rent a Disney movie from recently. It's basically a five-act movie, right? Sure. The first act I don't give a shit about at all and in fact creeps me out. What's the first thing? The like deepfake DH thing. Oh, that. Which lasts for 25 minutes. I don't like that. It's too long for sure. Then the New York section I like. I like old indie. Yes. Like, but it's a little sad. I just, my note was I just wanted him to stay at the Battle of Syracuse. I agree. I didn't want him to come back. If he had stayed and he was like, I want to live inside of history. David pushes back on this and I would have loved that. No, no.

[01:45:29] I don't push back on him staying. I push back on him dying. I didn't want him to die. But I, him staying is kind of an interesting choice. Although then what do we, it's like there's some pottery and he's just kind of sitting there like, like actually. I just need to see it. I just need to see him like, you know, who is the great Roman figure that he's with at the time. I wish the movie opened in New York. Yeah. Didn't have the flashback. And started time traveling like an hour in. The horse thing though is incredible. That sequence is great when he gets on the horse and is racing through the subway. I'm going to have to rewatch it. That's the New York section.

[01:45:59] I like that. I think it's pretty good. I like it. People are really, really hard on that movie and they're not hard on much worse Drek in my opinion. I like New York and I like ancient Rome and everything else kind of is for the birds. We, by the time this comes out, a complete unknown will have come out. On this very day, a new complete unknown trailer came out and I almost threw up watching it. I haven't watched the trailer. You're really stressed out. But I saw, I saw the reactions. I saw the reactions. This is how I feel every time there's a new Toy Story movie. Like don't fucking play with me. I was like this is disgusting to me. That's how I felt watching it.

[01:46:29] I went to see the substance with my mother, which was a very fascinating experience. You're throwing up. Yep. And she turned to me during the complete unknown trailer and just went, he doesn't have the arrogance. That was her take on Timmy. Too winsome. Which has been sticking with me. He doesn't have the arrogance. New trailer tries to sell that hard. I'm not sure it gets there. Anyway, by the time this episode comes out, Timothee Chalamet is probably one best actor. That's probably true. If Timothee, he's not going to. So thank God he won't do it. But make your prediction. What were you about to say?

[01:46:59] No, it just, it would be crazy if like another music biopic performance in a shit ass movie wins and then people are like, what happened there almost immediately after. I'm going to bet against it. Yeah, seriously. David. Yes. We're both big fans of public transit. I love to take the subway, the bus. Yeah. The city bike even. Anything. You know why? Because we live in a society. True. And it's nice when that society functions.

[01:47:29] True. You know what's one of my biggest pet peeves? You're on a crowded subway car and someone is there just taking a phone call. Oh, sure. Chatting on the phone. Or. It's too loud. Playing their music without headphones. Oh my goodness. Or playing a game with the sound on. You know what I'm saying? Playing Disney Emoji Blitz with the sound on? I always have it on mute is the point. Because this is a public space. We all share this. We have to show respect. But beyond that, an astonishing lack of privacy.

[01:47:59] Listen, do you really want the whole train to know about your medical test results or whatever you're talking about? No, I don't. How well you're blitzing? No. The fact that you're listening to the newest episode of. I don't. Insert controversial podcast here. I don't want anyone to know anything. So I use ExpressVPN. Because all your traffic throws through, you know, internet service providers that know what sites you're visiting. It's like a complicated transit system. In the US, ISPs are legally allowed to sell that information to advertisers.

[01:48:29] Bad. ExpressVPN reroutes 100% of your traffic through secure encrypted servers. So your ISPs can't see your browsing history. It hides their IP address. It's easy to use. It's very, it's so easy to use. Tap, click button. Yeah. That's it. I'll be honest here. I was scared off of VPNs for years, even after hearing people talk about it. Because you thought they were a hassle. I know they say they're easy, but it's not gonna be that easy. It really is that easy. And beyond privacy, there are many reasons why it is worthwhile to use a VPN.

[01:48:58] It also comes with ExpressVPN comes with identity defender, which is a new suite of tools to get your data removed from data brokers. I love that. When your data appears on the dark web and even ensure you against data theft for up to 1 million dollars. Now I spent a few years really getting my stuff onto the dark web. I thought you were trying to get it out there. I was loading it in. An interesting new method. Yeah, exactly. Let's see what happens. Let's just like pour it in. But now I'm getting it out of there. You gotta pull it out. Let's get it out of the dark web. You gotta pull it out. Of course, look, it's always relevant for us to mention another great use of a VPN

[01:49:28] is to change your location to be able to access different libraries on streaming services. Yeah. You wanna watch a movie that maybe is not available on your streaming service in this country? Well, maybe it's available in Hungary. Who knows? And look, Amy Heckerling coming up next on this podcast. A lot of her movies are flipping in and out of circulation once you get past the big ones. It's worth taking a look. You put on the monocle. Yep. So, protect your online privacy today by visiting expressvpn.com slash check.

[01:49:53] That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash check to find out how you can get up to four extra months free. Expressvpn.com slash check. David. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the physical work I'm doing here. Oh, you're scratching. Ugh. I got that. Do you have an itch of some sort? I got that spring travel itch!

[01:50:22] Oh, you wanna travel in spring! David! I want to travel in spring. Bye! The term spring travel itch. My friend I just saw, she's off to Nashville. Spring travel! I just, I know someone who's doing some spring travel. I think I feel, I saw another friend who was traveling somewhere. Greece! You said that in a weird way. My friend, she's off to Nashville. Spring travel! Okay, now I get it. My other friend went to Greece. Spring travel! No! Sure, yes! I just went to St. Croix! Spring travel!

[01:50:51] Ben was on island time. And Ben, I- In the spring! I'm sure when you went on a Caribbean vacation in the middle of the spring, you decide to wear your best quince items that you bought last fall. Heavy sweaters, long pants. No! No! We've recommended quince products that made sense for that season. No! But guess what? Quince has range! Yes. Lightweight shirts and shorts for $30. Pants for any occasions. Comfortable lounge sets.

[01:51:21] Things that are good for spring travel. Uh, yep. Uh, and they've got premium luggage options. Durable duffel bags to carry it all. Spring travel! And it's all priced less to 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I would say that's the best part. They're partnering with the factories to cut out the costs of the middleman and pass the savings on to us. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that! I love that!

[01:51:47] I'm gonna look on quince right now and see if there's any, uh, spring travel items that I might want. I didn't even know about this. Look, they have a whole travel section. They've got suitcases, large and small. I like that. I like that. Or a bundle if you want both. They got packing cubes. My wife is a big fan of packing cubes. David, I am not surprised to hear that. Yes, certainly not. That tracks. They've got cool little toiletry bags. They got one of those passport holders. I love toiletry bags.

[01:52:16] Yeah, I gotta travel with like four different toiletry bags. Ooh, I might get this backpack. Very stylish looking neoprene backpack. But what about shorts? Well, sure. I was in their travel section, but yes, they of course have shorts. Okay. Short pants. Yes. As some might call them. Short pants. Yes, I'm gonna get myself some plus fours and a travel backpack. And I'm gonna be the Tintin of spring. Yes. Going to, you know, Tintin in somewhere. David in somewhere. Right. Your spring travel plans, of course, is you driving yourself to the beach three times a week for four months. Yeah. Can't wait for it to hit 80 degrees. That's what's coming up.

[01:52:45] So, for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash check for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash check. Okay, let's talk about the film. Is it good? This movie opens with a very Jaws-like sequence, right?

[01:53:15] The sort of, you're not seeing the dinosaurs. A sequence you kind of always forget. It's silent. Yeah. I would say. Even as someone who's seen this movie one million times, you always forget it opens with creepy music over these kind of ominous titles. And then this, right, this kind of like monster sequence. Yeah. Yeah. Characters are largely not going to see ever again. Nope. It's silence and faces and roars and brutality. Yeah. Do we need this?

[01:53:41] I do think it helps to set up the world in a way we were saying of like... The movie takes so long to get to the action. Yes. Not in a complaining way. Yes. It just does. You need a little action. So maybe you just need a little kind of activation at the start. There's such a cliche structure now. Yes. This thing. This like little tease of the world we're going to go to with some violence. Uh-huh. That maybe it just feels more rote in the aftermath. I think so.

[01:54:08] I think here's what specifically helps, what the sequence helps with in the rest of the film. One, setting up that we're not going to see as much staff later. We're not going to see all the different departments. Right. They're setting up why they need safety inspection and like experts. Totally. Right. I guess that's the sort of... I also think talking about the cynicism of this movie, there's something very pointed in like it opening with a death that is never commented on again. Mm-hmm. Right? That the movie starts to be like, oh, and Hammond's grandchildren are in danger.

[01:54:37] For the first time he's starting to question the morality of what he's built. It's a good note. It makes sense. Like there has been this sort of rounding error in setting up this park of like, how many fucking guys have died just trying to transport these dinosaurs? Right. Just like literally figuring out the basics of like, what do we keep them in? Right. I think there's a helpful extrapolation in watching this sequence and being able to then copy-paste in your mind. Like, so this has probably happened a hundred times. This is happening simultaneously across different parts of the park every day.

[01:55:04] And this is also just a point that the movie sort of makes and then has to just... And then we don't worry about it because everything goes wrong. But like, this would be largely bad, right? Sure. The park experience, they're nowhere near like figuring out how it works. No. Because it seems to be basically like, okay, you see some brachiosauruses or something, right? They sort of... They're easier to see because they're chill, right? Yeah. But then the T-Rex experience is basically like, drive by this paddock that's probably like a fucking thousand acres. Mm-hmm.

[01:55:33] Maybe we drop a goat over there and we'll see some trees rustle. Like, what's the plan? Well, as a frequent attendee of the zoo with my young child, this is kind of what it's like to go to the zoo. It's kind of what the zoo is like. Where you're like, you go to the tiger cage and then I got tigers are sleeping. Sorry. Come back next time. There'll be another $40. You know, like that's kind of how they do it. Gotta become a member. The suggestion. I am a member actually. But yeah. What's that? No, the suggestion of like, oh fuck, I think I saw one. Yeah. Right. Exactly. I guess you're right. That keeps you on the line.

[01:56:01] It's just like, you're not gonna, how are you ever gonna see the raptors? They're like hunting animals that like hide in the fucking grass. Yeah. It's what you just said. They haven't really thought this through yet. They're still like field testing. And don't get me started on Jurassic World inventing an invisible dinosaur. You want to see the dinosaur. What is the thinking there? My friends. Why would you make it invisible? It is wild. Because they can, David. Yeah.

[01:56:30] And of course, I always cite Dan Harmon's rant about in that movie, Chris Pratt saying like, so you invented like a new kind of dinosaur that turns invisible and is crazy? Seems like a bad idea. And just Harmon being like, if someone has to say that out loud, your movie is fundamentally fucked up. Like we know. You don't need someone to say that. And this movie has the way better version of it, which is like Malcolm being like, you're grappling with forces you don't understand. Like, you know, that's, he crystallizes in a much more interesting way.

[01:56:57] But also that Hammond's like, the thing is the wonder is that we all like get to be close to and possibly touch these things that have always felt mythological. But as you said, the thing that's so compelling to children is this was real. Like from a young age, you're starting to have these like mythologies popped of like, well, that's like fantasy. There's no tooth fairy. This is like fairy tales. And then you get older and all these things are eliminated. But you're like dinosaurs are the one thing that feel magical to you as a child and remain real, even though you don't get to make contact with them.

[01:57:26] It feels like Hammond's like, oh, there's some degree of like people want to feel the danger. But they even talk about they've built in this thing of what is it? The fucking lyceum, like the thing they don't have in their DNA strand that can deactivate the dinosaurs if they get off the island. That is yes, that's true. They need a particular enzyme that they only get from the park and they'll die. But like versus the Jurassic World movies are like, we have to make these more dangerous. How do we make them deadlier? You're like the takeaway from this would be these people still are on this like quick side

[01:57:56] quest to figure out how to tame dinosaurs. And they think if we neuter them a little bit more, they'll be safe. We can control it. I mean, why would you make Jurassic Park is a movie about right science thinking it can control nature and right. You can't. Jurassic World is a movie about like, legacy sequels are out of control and right. Like every sequel has to be more bigger than the last. How do we make an invisible T-Rex with knife teeth? I mean, so yes. So we began with, right, the raptor sequence where we don't see a raptor. We just see death and chaos.

[01:58:25] And so, okay, let's meet Alan Grant and Ellie Sattler. Sure. Paleontologists who are out on a dig. How do we get to know Alan Grant? How about he's just like an absolute demon to this like kid who's snarky little kid. Velociraptors for being small. That's one of my least favorite fucking online fan theories. Oh, that he like turned out to be Chris Pratt? Yeah. Owen Brady. Why do we let these things into our life? I know.

[01:58:52] Whoever posted that originally, I hope is in Guantanamo. Now, this movie obviously and the book made Velociraptors famous. Yes. Velociraptors are actually smaller than they were depicted in the movie. They're more like kind of turkey sized. Interesting. And it's Dionicus, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. That would be more like this big sort of pack hunting animal, I guess. But also, I think like... It makes them the coolest dinosaurs in a way they definitely weren't before the 90s. Exactly right.

[01:59:22] This is like their fame. Obviously, there's a fucking basketball team called the raptors because of this movie, right? But yeah, no, it's like... Every kid our age grew up being like number one coolest dinosaur is the Velociraptor. Right. Which is them doing the math of like, we need to have dinosaurs who can walk through doors. Yeah. We need dinosaurs who are the exact right size to be a little bigger than kids. Well, and also like let's... This movie is just like, can we make Alien for eight year olds? Right. Because like that's what the Velociraptor is, where you're just like a perfect killing machine that has no feelings.

[01:59:51] Whereas the T-Rex is a hero in the movie basically. Right? Do we think they overstate the power of the raptor? Like in the Alan scene where he's talking about like, you know, then they're fucking closing in. Yeah. But isn't that basically PR of them being like, people are going into this movie, they don't know shit about raptors. We need Alan Grant's instructional at the beginning of the movie to be telling you how deadly a raptor is so you have that in your back pocket. That's what I mean. Like, are they... Are they relative to what we actually believe is true of raptors? Like...

[02:00:20] Do they make them more of a killing machine? Yeah, they made them into xenomorphs. Yeah. But I do think it works in the movie because anytime someone is outside in the last act of the movie, you are scared. Right. And that sequence where Ellie, you know, where the hunter guy, fuck with the hunter guy's name. Muldoon. Muldoon, Muldoon. Muldoon. Bob Peck. Bob Peck. And she just runs. And Spielberg, we're just... You know, she does the thing where she swings from the tree. And you're like... She's got five seconds. You believe it. Right? Before, like, a raptor is just going to take her out.

[02:00:48] But it's the fucking classic Spielberg shit of just like, don't introduce pieces onto the chessboard too early. Don't introduce anything that is irrelevant. You know? Like, you set up the idea of the raptor, that is just sort of seems like a toss off of like showing how bad this guy is. is with kids. Right. But it's like, no, the last act of this movie is going to be the raptors. They can be indoors. Right. They can be anywhere. They're fast. They're small. Yeah. But also the raptors, it's like,

[02:01:19] they're just true villains that you can't root for and the T-Rex is kind of a hero that you love in this movie, right? That's a good point. He gets the victory in the movie. He takes down the raptors. They don't get any victory. They don't take down shit. Right. They don't kill one fucking dinosaur in this movie. That is... All the little bends of the world are like T-Rex, man. Yeah, he's the king. Absolutely. And like... He's huge. He's got a big ass jaw. Yeah. His roar is the coolest like bit of sound design in the movie, obviously. We should say she. She. She. Although, yeah,

[02:01:48] well, they're all women, right? Yeah. This is a female. Although some of them are flip-flopping with that frog DNA. That's what's going on, right? Yeah. Making eggs. Life finds a way. Blah, blah, blah. That happened pretty quick, didn't it? Yes. Wouldn't you think evolutionarily that would have taken a little bit more time? How long this has all been going on? I bet I think if you dive deep on that. Which an R&D was pretty intense and drawn out on Jurassic Park. Five years? 25 years? How long are we talking here? I think... That's a good question. I think between five and ten is my guess.

[02:02:18] Five and ten, okay. Yeah. Like, I think these dinosaurs have been on this land in some form for multiple years before our characters are visiting, our heroes. So this is an important part of this story. Obviously, the Gennaro character is introduced because he's there to really check up on behalf of the investors as to how this is all going. Right. But it's like, we're good. Like, they made the dinosaurs. Like, the investors should be nervous if they can't make the dinosaurs. I want to make them. It's like, we're good to go. Right? Isn't the idea that Gennaro is like... He doesn't know that. Well, why is Hammond

[02:02:48] not telling anyone that they've got hundreds of dinosaurs on this island? Right. These are all fair notes. And I think the best way to think about it is because he's afraid of corporate, like, plundering, right? Like, because he's afraid of what will happen. That someone will be like, wait, he actually, the crazy guy did it? You think there's, there's like lots of NDAs here for all the employees of Island New War? I mean, you have to fill in blanks here, but that, like, Hammond is coming off of a Disney World level success where he, dare I say, it has blank check status, where he's going around

[02:03:17] to people and he's like, hey, here's my new project. You can buy in. I don't tell you anything about it. Like, he's going like Mike Lee rules. I need investors. There's no script. I pick the cast. He does kind of look like Mike Lee. And you get to see it when the cut is done. Mike Lee would have been great as John Hammond. A little grouchy. Yeah, I think they would have been grouchier. Closer to the book, possibly. But that's my read, is that, like, he has had some series of successes that are so undeniable that he goes and pitches a blind project for 10 years. I need this amount of money.

[02:03:47] You have this percentage. I don't tell you what it is until it's done. And Gennaro is the first guy on behalf of all these investors who is seeing the thing. Not just seeing it, but for the first time being like, that's what the concept is? Isn't it weird that all of our P.T. Barnum figures are just into tech and politics now and they're not into making shit that we like that's funny? And, like, tweeting. It sucks. They're just like, the best thing you can do as a rich guy is to fucking use your phone. Like, fucking Megalopolis is a benevolent act. Sure. Because I'm like, this is what our weird

[02:04:16] rich men used to do. Right. That's true. Gaze into my mind! Yeah. And you're like, whoa, okay. Right. I'm like, whether or not you like it is irrelevant. This is, like, the best way people can spend money. Your mind is full of Jon Voight's boner? Yeah. You love Hudson Yards? This is my big take is Megalopolis is about Francis Ford Copeland and, like, the vessel. These sons of... He responded to Hudson Yards the way Gennaro looked at it

[02:04:45] at Jurassic Park. So, yes, everyone is brought to Jurassic Park. But really, we only see Grant and Ellie getting the pitch. Like, the kids show up out of nowhere. Ian shows up basically out of nowhere. Gennaro, you know. And they get the hard sell and they love it. They see the Brachiosaurus. They're amazed. It's the most famous Spielberg face of all time, right, is the two of them seeing the dinosaur. He gives you several consecutive. Him physically turning her head. Brilliant. But you already have a little bit of, like,

[02:05:15] she's calling out the plant life. Yep. Is this incompatible? Right. You just got this because it looks cool. They're asking follow-up questions that start to be, like... Maybe I'm a dumb movie watcher, but I think it was literally this time around where I realized she was a paleobotanist. She's a paleobotanist. I was like, she's a paleontologist just like this other guy. But that's not what she's... She's there for the plants. She's there for the plant life. Which I guess they're also creating, by the way. They don't even get into how they're creating. Well, she talks about the different... It's extinct plants. But, like, how are they doing that? Good point. Cool. Where's Mr. DNA for that one? Plant DNA!

[02:05:45] Yeah, see, I'm a mosquito. And I'm like, all right, fine. I'm a mosquito. The mosquito thing, when I did finally see this movie at whatever age as a child on TV or VHS after Lost World, the sap thing, I was like, holy... Because I just saw Lost World on its own. And I was like, I'm just taking this as a given. They brought dinosaurs back. I didn't know what the answer was. The sap thing, I was just like, this is the smartest movie solve I've ever seen and I still kind of feel that way 30 years later. It is Crichton's idea, right? I mean, Crichton completely came up with that. That's the trillion dollar idea.

[02:06:15] It's Crichton taking real science and combining it with pseudoscience, which is like what he would do. But it's perfect. And it's really clever. It's perfect like Pulp Logic. Taking an idea and then bridging it with essentially fantasy because I think it's like, it's like, there's no DNA that old that you could ever find. Right. You could find old DNA but not 65 million years. That's ludicrous. And even if you did, right, you can't this just then be like, boop, boing! You know, like it turns into all the DNA or whatever it is the idea is. Missing pieces

[02:06:44] just so some frog in there. It doesn't matter. We're all good. The DNA sequence in the movie, the mystery, you're just like, yep, this can happen right now. And I love that it's like I completely buy this. The Carousel of Progress, you're the rotating audience seeing the glimpses of these different like offices. And then, I mean, I love them interrupting the ride. Like them being, you know, Attenborough being like, do you get it? Do you get it? And then at a certain point, they're like, wait a fucking second. Are those G-Rex eggs? Like, how do I get this bar off of me? Yes.

[02:07:14] And... Which is what I think they all play very well is if you've devoted your life to these studies and then you find out like, wait a second, this guy's been doing this shit for eight years in private? Some asshole just has like a grow light with eggs on there. They have like a logo and uniforms? Like, this has just been happening? The merch is already on shelves? Is there, what, I mean, is there anything like that happening right now in the world? This is, I mean, I think this is what,

[02:07:43] is part of what makes this premise so compelling that none of the sequels can replicate is the discovery. David and I talk a lot about Men in Black as another franchise we're obsessed with where none of the sequels can overcome the problem of the reveal of the first time someone finds out, holy shit, this has been going on the whole time. I mean, Men in Black is a 97-minute movie where the first hour is like, let's explain what the Men in Black are and then they're like, and now one sequence and we're done, bye-bye. And you're like, I'm perfectly satisfied. But anytime you can build

[02:08:12] a movie premise around, hey, you, the average civilian had no idea this has been going on for years, it's like, money in the world. That's JFK for me, guys. That's how I felt watching JFK. I was like, so the paramilitary forces of the United States and America have been pushed. what-if premise. The graphic design is like, I think, so important to the movie. Oh, yeah. It's so good. But this is the like, Spielberg, like fucking universal consult way where it's like, you would buy, whereas I think a lot of movies like this,

[02:08:42] I'm like, that wouldn't be successful. So the book, it's not because the logo is from the film. It's not from, the books eventually start using the logo, but the original book cover was just this. Which is, the silhouette is there. It's already compelling. Yeah, it looked good at, I don't know. But every element of like the font, the logo, it's also evocative. I love when you get to the merch store, you have that painting shot of the merch store. Well, of course you would. Well, of course I love that. But all the dinosaurs are brightly colored,

[02:09:12] where there's that sense of like, well, kids don't want to buy the realistic looking ones. Right. The T-Rex has to be purple. Um, so they, uh, are shown the park, they are impressed, and then they all sit down and are like, this is disgusting, you have essentially defied the laws of God. Right. Like, what are you doing here? And also, there seem to be only like six employees, is anyone like, watching the store, essentially. And when you have lines like, uh, Muldoon being like, I told you to put fucking locks on the car. You're like,

[02:09:42] nobody thought to put locks on the car in the theme park? Like, but you kind of buy it as this is kind of like, uh, a half-assed operation in some ways because it's all been about making the dinosaurs. We'll figure out the rest later, right? I once helped launch a startup. It's extremely hard and there's a lot of things that you forget about. It's not easy to just think of everything and especially when you're making dinosaurs. Yes. Um, you gotta think of a lot of stuff. And that's, I mean, launching the ringer was as hard as cloning dinosaurs from Amber.

[02:10:12] And now we are dinosaurs. But did you ever, it all worked out perfectly. Did you ever in the process consider whether or not you should? Uh, I think about it every day now, actually. Uh, as you build a video, video-ready podcast studios or whatever. Yes. Um. A paddock of sorts. Mm-hmm. So, interspersed with this, we do have the scene where Dennis Nedry meets with a character that will later be played by Campbell, uh, Scott, right? And in this film it's played by a convicted sex offender. Oh, really?

[02:10:41] Who is it? That's why he doesn't come back. He, I don't think that's the only reason why he doesn't come back. He doesn't make a huge impression. I'd argue that's the main reason. Well, I'm just, I imagine they were like, let's get a big shot actor here. But yeah, Cameron Thorne. But also, we legally can't bring this guy to set. Oh, boy. Bad story. Um. But yes. But yes, he's introduced earlier than Ian Malcolm, than the kids. Yeah. Like, the sort of, this is the wrench in the works. This is all the fucking Spielberg shit where he just has such a good innate sense of like,

[02:11:11] what order audiences need to process information in. This place is dangerous. Yeah. Alan Grant is not good with kids. Yeah. Dinosaurs exist. But also like, Nedry's gonna die at the halfway point. Yeah. So we need to introduce him early. You can't just introduce him when the characters would meet him for the first time. You have to start developing this, laying track for this. Yeah. Wayne Knight is phenomenal in the scene with Dodgson. Him saying Dodgson's here, so funny. Him cackling at the, uh, the spray can

[02:11:41] is so good because that's how I would react to that where I would just be like, what is this James Bond-ass shit you made for this like act of subterfuge where I'm basically just putting some embryos in a freezer but no, it's this like adorable, like it works, you know, him putting the foam on the, uh, You're dead on though. On the pie. Sean, we're like, I saw Space Jam with my dad and my brother and I was like, holy shit, people can be like that? Like I was just like, to me it was like I had just seen a T-Rex in real life. I was like, Wayne Knight, my dad was like,

[02:12:11] he's in a ton of stuff. He's a human cartoon. Right. Do you think Barbasol paid to get their name on the can or they, I don't think so. Okay. It's an interesting question. That was my shaving cream of choice circa this time because on Halloween. Oh, sure. You know, we were sort of all shaving creaming each other and the local neighborhood and then the parents were like, that's gonna wipe the paint off of my house. Don't put that on my house. I imagine it's like the E.T.

[02:12:40] Risa's Pieces thing where M&M's was like, we don't want E.T. eating M&M's. He looks ugly. And then Risa's Pieces laughed all the way at the bank. Like if they go to Gillette, Gillette's like, what, you're fucking smuggling DNA inside our can? We don't want that association. Like Barbasol's kind of like a little bit more of an old-timey brand. They're not hip. Yeah, right. And they get the bump from this. I just feel like it speaks well of them that their product still works with embryos. Incredibly well. And then it's really just, it's one night

[02:13:10] the rest of the movie, right? It's like, Nedry fucks up the park in the evening. I think another bit of brilliant Wayne Nidery is his like, seething arrogance when he's sitting there at his console and he's like, no one could do what I have done. Two million lines of code or whatever. And then his pathetic performance is like, I'm just going out to, going to the vending machine to, yeah, don't mind if some things turn off and I'll see you guys later. I'm being very normal right now. Just like, sure you guys know I'm being normal.

[02:13:40] This is why. I hate this man. I wish him to stop speaking. he's, the hubris is hitting like, a day too early. Right. He should start feeling this cocky after he sold the embryos. Right. But I don't know if it's- He's already just sort of like, I'm the master of the universe. But to get out and do what he needs to do, he needs to shut down the security in the entire park? Eh, he's just going to have to go with it. There's just no way to get out? You can't just like, turn off one door? You'd think he could just turn off one door. This is a dinosaur park. This is the hubris. He's not thinking through things clearly. He's just convinced that he can pull it off.

[02:14:10] What is his, like, if it were to go successfully, how- is he supposed to hand it off to the guy at the boat and then get back to his desk in 18 minutes? He's not- He's not getting on the boat, right? He's just making a handoff to the boat? And I guess he then gets a million and a half, right? That's the number? Yeah. It's like a good amount of money, but it's like- He should ask for a lot more? Right. It's probably worth billions as corporate- World-class corporate espionage too. Like a huge- I don't know

[02:14:40] if it's illegal in Costa Rica, but I mean, isn't he going to prison for like- Probably. I mean, but also, isn't what they're doing illegal? Like, this is the other question. I mean, this is why I asked if- who was on your supporting actor ballot? Because like- Yeah, there's an argument for Knight. the huge choice and the obvious choice and the undeniable choice in a lot of ways. Wayne Knight is so fucking effective in this movie and in a way where you're just like- If he's 10 degrees smaller, it's not popping in the same way, and if he's 10 degrees bigger,

[02:15:10] it like unbalances the whole film. Right. It might even be a matter of like two degrees in either direction and he's off. And you're right, he plays the balance all the arcs of like- You're just- He probably only has whatever, 10 minutes in the movie. It's just a really- It's a Dion Waiters-esque performance. I'm just going to keep doing a rewatchable terminology. Um, but everyone in this movie is Dion Waiters-ing it up. Right? Even B.D. Wong, sure, he really just gets the one scene. Right? He fucking nails it. That scene is so powerful.

[02:15:40] He makes a huge impression. He makes a huge impression because you're like, this is a- This seems like a good person. Right. And he seems to be almost just kind of doing this out of love. Like, the hatching scene is this like lovely scene. Right. Right? And the- Right, and it's just, you're like, this is a huge mistake. And of course, the best part being they have hatched a velociraptor. Right. Where they're like, so what is this cute little thing? And it's like, God's perfect killing machine. We're going to start feeding it so it gets big.

[02:16:09] He makes such a huge impression that Trevorrow decides to make him the Emperor Palpatine, Obi-Wan Kenobi of his trilogy. I think it's- They can't decide which one it is. They keep going back and forth. I think it's partly that B.D. Wong sort of just had such a long, impressive career. Right. Yes. And like, so by the time the legacy sequels come around, it's like, that's a fucking vein to tap. Bring back B.D. Wong. Right? Well, I think the other part of it, I think there's some just sort of hard math of it of like, okay, we bring back one legacy character. Right. Like, Malcolm,

[02:16:39] Sattler, and Grant all did sequels. Attenborough's dead. Right? Like, Nedry's dead canonically within the film. As is Sam Jackson. Right. The kids, like, no one's going to recognize. Right. You're like, by default, I guess B.D. Wong is the most powerful person to bring back. You're right. And then, of course, then they brought back the real stars, Locusts. Love those Locusts. Of those Locusts. Yeah. And, but, you know,

[02:17:07] the film's perfectly structured, in my opinion, in that you are getting all of this explanation in the middle of Spielbergian wonder. The Triceratops, the Brachiosaurus, the egg hatching, and all that. He's just got, like, such a good, like, eye on the clock of, like, without feeling schematic of, like, okay, every 10 minutes there has to be awe. Right. It doesn't feel as, like, diagrammed as that. Right, which, again, not to keep bringing up the fucking Jurassic World, but those movies had that problem. Yes. The classic MCU thing of just, like, yeah, it's been 20 minutes,

[02:17:36] time for an action sequence. But also, just the feeling of, like, why is it from Ken in this movie? Like, what are we accomplishing by including his character? He gets killed off and you're just like, I, this felt like a waste of time. Yeah. He doesn't really add anything to the narrative. Those movies are setting up so many things where you're like, I don't know if this is seeding for future films or these are the vestiges of a previous draft or what. Well, that's a lot of fun. And this movie, it's, what you said, Cap came in and was just like, fucking focus it. Narrow it down. And what I love about, so,

[02:18:06] everything pops off while they are on the T-Rex tour. Yeah. And I love that everyone is on the T-Rex tour. They are all awed by the majesty of the science. They are not that interested in the park. Right. Right. Like, they're actually here to evaluate a theme park in a way. And he's like, take the ride and the ride sucks and they're all just sitting in the car and the movie's energy is starting to be like, what's gonna, you know, are we gonna get to something? Yeah. Right? Like, it's perfectly timed within the structure of the movie for them to finally,

[02:18:35] for shit to get real. The perfect storm of all these elements colliding at the same time. Yes. Namely, a storm happening at the same time that Nedry is pulling his shit. It's everyone on the beach at Amity Island. That's what it is. Right. And then we're all down to the beach, we know something's gonna happen. Yes. And the T-Rex shows up and it is the most like, consequentially, like, it's just like, the expectations for the T-Rex could not be higher in this movie and the movie like, surpasses them by so much. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

[02:19:04] I was convulsing in my chair at 11 years old. I couldn't believe how cool it was. Is there anything like that since Jurassic Park? I'm fucking serious. Honestly, Avatar legitimately when I, the first time I've told this story many times before, the first time I saw Avatar at the Lincoln Center AMC and I, my jaw was on the floor. Look. On the floor. We, we stay in Avatar in this house. We love Avatar. I don't think there's not one thing in Avatar.

[02:19:33] It's not the one thing. I mean, as much as I have respect for the mighty Ikron. Yes. Of course. And to Rook Mekto. I think as soon as we get into that first night sequence, look, I fucking love it. That's a clue. You're not going to, like Titanic is similar in terms of like Titanic when to me, the most, like the most, like I can't believe I'm seeing this moment in Titanic is the water coming through the dome. Sure. Where you're just like, that's real water. Yes. Like those people are being drowned in one billion gallons of water. But I, yes,

[02:20:02] I agree with you that like Lord of the Rings is sort of like maybe the Balrog, but like there's not quite anything like this. It's a great movie moment, but it doesn't feel the same. Yeah. It's the one and what's incredible about it is they basically pulled off the awe-inspiring, positive, romantic version of this moment with the reveal of the Brachiosaurus and like nailed that. And then for the second time, like 45 minutes later, they do the inverse of that, which is like, what is the ultimate terror? I don't, I don't think there's the purity.

[02:20:32] He's so majestic. Yes. She, she's so majestic, the T-Rex. Right. And yet, and the entire sequence, you're also just like, this is completely out of control. This is an animal. Right. Right. Like, and the way it behaves is so perfect where it's just, where it bites the underside of the car, right? Like, it's like, you know, like things like that where you're just like, right, this is, they have no control over this. Like, it's just rampaging around like any animal would. It looks like a puppy in a way. Wasn't there, wasn't one of the key T-Rex facts that I learned as a kid that they have small brains, that they're not smart,

[02:21:02] that there are smart dinosaurs in this world with T-Rexes while great killers are not intelligent. I think there's tons of debate over this now, but at the time, that's what we were being told. That they were stupid. Yeah. So that, that animal instinct that you're talking about where it like, it's actually not good at hunting down all of this raw flesh that has been served up to it. But that's what's scary about it too is you're like, you can't pathologize this thing. Right. Right. But you kind of love it. The raptors, you're like, I'm terrified of those things. Get them out of here.

[02:21:31] Shoot them in the head. God, which is why world making the choice of like, they're our friends now was kind of a bold one in a way, but then it's also just kind of annoying to me. Yeah. Because I just want them to be the xenomorph. Like if there's ever the fucking alien movie where there's, there's someone who's like, I have tamed an alien, I'm going to be so mad. It's, I would say it is inevitable. It feels inevitable, right? One day there'll be some, it'll do the walking dead thing if someone's got an alien on a chain. Right. Romulus, yay or nay? Didn't see. I had twins, bro.

[02:22:01] I give, I, I give it an okay. I put it right in the middle. I had a good time while watching it. I'm a soft yay. I'm a, I'm a soft yay. The softest of yay is possibly. I did not. I don't even have a good excuse. I just was kind of like, well, get to it. There's some Ben stuff in it for sure. There's some real Ben stuff. It's gooey. It's gooey. It's gotta be gooey. I'm sure there's chains. I mean, if Fede Alvarez like remade Kate and Leopold, it would be like full of goo. Like, he'd be like, where'd all this goo come from? He's like, if he remains sleepless in Seattle, it would be full of goo.

[02:22:30] It's really dark in this chamber. Oh boy. I kind of love how Jurassic Park is a little gross. It is. Very gross. I like how it's sweaty. Sweaty, rainy, gooey, slimy. The snotty moment. Shit. I was gonna say, dinosaurs freezing on kids. Big, big poop diamonds, you know? Yeah. Even that is just like, it's a movie that goes out of its way to not blarp its characters, to take back an old term in our terminology, right? I mean, this movie is no lost in space, to be clear. Of course.

[02:22:59] But you gotta like split up the crew into a couple little smaller teams. I'm just like, she needs to stay and focus on the poop is such a good way to split her off to be able to have splinter units that doesn't feel like the movie's disregarding her. No. I think she has, I mean, people, I've heard that complaint that she has less of an arc, but obviously Allen's is really the only arc because Malcolm gets pseudo-killed off. Yeah. I mean, the movie doesn't actually kill him off, but it's sort of like, okay, bye, Ian. He just gets to be the vocal conscious Right, he's just like,

[02:23:29] I was right! She's the one who's like going out and actually facing shit. Like, she in a lot of ways is the most conventional action hero of the movie because Malcolm's laid up for the second half and Grant's primary thing is keeping the kids safe. She's like going out and solving shit. Her limp is burned into my mind. You know, her dragging her leg running towards Sam Neill. Yes. I mean, and Dern doing that face that she does in every David Lynch movie, the sort of strained face, like, is perfect. The stuff with Allen and the kids, I feel like at the time

[02:23:59] critics were like warm but not in love with this movie. Right, it's part of their, like, I saw Hook, this guy is cooked, man, he can't help with this treacly kid shit. Everyone was like, this is better than Hook, but like, he's, he's, he's been domesticated. He'll never make a movie as nasty as Jaws again. Raiders has, like, more grit and edge. 100%. Even E.T. has this sort of darker energy to it, even though it's about kids and stuff. And like, I watch this stuff now and the stuff with the kids, I think, is very, very effective

[02:24:28] because the kids are not really annoying. Yeah. Ariana Richards does a great scream. And like, yes, okay, it's a little annoying when she says it's a Unix system. I mean, it's an awesome moment. It's like a meme now. Very hacker forward film. Yes. It's really funny at the moment where you're like, oh, they're giving her something to do. Great. But like, Mazzello saying he threw up is, always gets me because there's a T-Rex. He doesn't need to explain why he threw up, but it's such a vulnerable kid thing to do.

[02:24:58] He's embarrassed. No, I mean, and like, Alan being like, that's fine. It's okay. Like, it's such a, it's like a moment you would have it like a daycare, but it's like after a T-Rex knocked a Jeep over a cliff. I talk a lot about the time I spent with my little cousin who I love. It's a great kid. And it was just startling to watch this movie and be like, man, they really nailed this age group of like, what that kid is like. When I hang out with him and he just wants to tell me facts that he's just learned or ask me questions about the facts he hasn't gotten an answer to yet. So real. You know, like,

[02:25:30] I know about dinosaurs that I don't know. My nephew Jack is the same way. He loves dinosaurs and every time I see him, here's my new favorite and here are the things I know about it. That's just gonna be a golden era for me as a dad because I have so much useless shit in my head. Why does this guy like hang out with this nine-year-old? I know why you're because he's like, who's Dr. Doom? And I'm like, who's Dr. Doom? Let's fucking go. But I think the stuff with the kids mostly works and it's also not a huge part of the movie. You have the tree sequence which is nice and you have the fence sequence

[02:26:00] which is, you know, intense. Right. Yeah. The other thing too, I think related to the critics point that you were making is historically critics who are often older, usually in the back half of their life if they are of some stature in the culture, are terrible on horror and this is a horror movie. You know, it has all the hallmarks of a horror movie structurally, all the big scare moments. It is a very high-minded science fiction adventure movie but at its heart. It's a rollercoaster movie. But at its heart, it's horror

[02:26:30] and middle-aged critics stink on horror. They almost always do. I'm very conscious of this as I get into that phase of my life because you've lost a kind of essence of what appeals to young people who love to feel this way. Right. And this is a movie made for young people to make them excited and make them understand like the way you felt when you were six when you discovered dinosaurs that you could still have that when you're 60 in John Hammond. It's like a brilliant fusion. So I tend to not take criticism of deep genre very seriously no matter when it's come around. I mean,

[02:27:00] unless you're looking in like Fangoria or whatever, you know, like where there were appreciators of genre as it came, right? Like, yeah, no, I mean, Pauline Kale like loved Spielberg. We'll talk about it. And then like when Raiders comes out, she's like, he's become this fucking machine guy. Like, I hate this shit. This is just a theme park now. And there's no, it's so funny to read her Raiders review where she's just like, there's no exhilaration and you're like, it's Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's built for exhilaration. It's the most exhilarating

[02:27:30] ride of the year. Are you out of your mind, Pauline? Even though you see those reviews from the time of Raiders, they had to like fucking nominate for best pictures. They were like, we can't deny this, right? Whereas this time they could because of Schindler's List. Exactly. If there isn't Schindler's List, do they have to nominate this movie? I think so. Great question. I would contend. Yes. In the way that like there were the sort of undeniables like Beauty and the Beast, you know, where you're just like, you know what? This is a seismic enough moment in film culture and like the audience

[02:27:58] has made their opinion heard. I do think that it gets nominated for best picture if Schindler isn't in the same year and the Academy is like, great, Spielberg has made this easy for us. You know what? We get to split him in half. Let me throw the question to the two of you and Ben can answer it too. And we'll talk about Schindler's List next week on Blank Check, obviously. Do you have this over Schindler? You're doing a 1993 top 10. You're a critic. Do your top 10. I mean, obviously, you can also just do your Spielberg list. How old a critic am I? You know, you're Sean Fennessey. I'm saying like, do a 1993 list for me.

[02:28:28] I mean, I like this film more than Schindler's List. So do I. I certainly understand the magnitude and importance of Schindler's List, not just to Spielberg, but to the history of, you know, to world history. This is one of the most watchable movies ever made and Schindler is a movie you have to prep yourself for. Well, I'm going to argue on that episode, one of the things about Schindler's List that's kind of crazy is how fucking watchable it is. I agree, but it is a movie that you have to be like, okay, I'm ready. No, you're not just going to be like, should we do 45 minutes of Schindler? Like, yeah, no, no, for sure. The interesting thing

[02:28:57] about that Oscar question, whether this movie would be nominated, is that this is the year that The Fugitive was nominated. 100%. That is the same exact thing you're talking about. Where it's like, this is pure Hollywood entertainment and it's so good, we cannot not recognize. Right. How do we not recognize just the most robust kind of Hollywood filmmaking? But like Butterfly Effect, if Schindler comes out the following year, then I think Jurassic gets Fugitive's nom in that spot. I fully agree. Right? I think so. I think, I mean, we'll get to our final rankings. I think I put Schindler above this,

[02:29:26] but I put E.T. and Jaws and maybe Close Encounters as well above Schindler. I would agree that those movies are above Jurassic Park for me in the sort of like faux objective point of view. It's impossible for me to disentangle my relationship to movies with Jurassic Park. It's impossible. Yeah. But I think I do have Raiders and Jaws over Jurassic. Mm-hmm. Yes. Jaws, yes, Raiders. But I do think as time goes on... Yeah, maybe you're right. For me, for me. Yeah, I don't, well, I don't know.

[02:29:56] I don't know. You know what? I'll redo my list. And we're not even talking about AI. Like there's a fancy... AI is my number one skill. Yeah. So, you know, we did this bifurcated thing where we covered everything from Lost World to, at that point, what was the ending point? BFG. We've covered everything else that's come out since then as a catch-up episode. In that ranking, you put AI number one. Yeah. It's my number one. And I can't remember if I put AI number one or number two. I might have put Catch number one. You love Catch. But I also saw AI again recently, was playing at phone form, and I'm like, this is my...

[02:30:25] I've seen AI so many times. It was such a big movie for me as a teenager, which is why I'm weird and stupid. It was huge for me when it came out. You put... You both put AI... Okay. ...at number one. I think... You know what the difference is? We both put AI at number one. I think you said AI is your favorite Spielberg period. It's my favorite Spielberg period. What did I have at number two, Ben? Minority Report. And I still have at number two. Saving Private Ryan, Catch Me If You Can. And Griffin, your... is... number two is Catch Me If You Can. Then three, bridge. Hell yeah. Four, Tintin. Five, Minority Report.

[02:30:55] He's got a nose for a good story. I know. Lincoln is only... higher. Sure. Lincoln is pure, pure drugs to me. Yeah. Just like every time I watch that movie, I am like, this is fucking molten ecstasy. I love this so much. As Lincoln is like arguing with his wife over their dead son, I'm just like, yes! Our son is dead! And like being like, get me a fourth blanket! It's cold in here! In 2022, after West Side Story,

[02:31:24] we did a top five Spielberg episode. Yes. And my top five was, it was me and Amanda and Joanna. And it was, five was Minority Report, four was Raiders, three was Jurassic Park, two was AI, and one was Jaws. Wow. Amanda and Joanna both had Jurassic Park at number one. I mean, I think that's... That's a long time. That's... For our generation, it is the Spielberg movie. Yeah. Right? It is. I think so. For the millennials. That's the funny thing, you read the reviews. I know you're sort of a cuspy millennial.

[02:31:53] I'm still officially millennial, but I have some Gen X traits. You had Elder Sheltzman... Excuse me. Elder Statesman critics like Pauline Kael... Sure. She's retired at this point, I think, yeah. I was saying, had discovered Spielberg as an adult and were commenting on the later periods of Spielberg's career as an adult, right? Right. But the time this movie is coming out, you have a lot of critics who grew up on Jaws and are now going like, well, it's fun, but it's no Jaws. Yeah, and they can feel the corporateness of this movie, right? Yeah, they were like, this feels corporate,

[02:32:23] this feels diagram, this feels kind of broad. Didn't it break the record for the most corporate tie-ins? It's the beginning of... Not the beginning, but it's right at the middle, I guess, of all of it. Right. This is sort of... This movie feels strategic. This is an entire lifestyle experience is this movie coming out this summer. Right, and their argument was none of this has the stickiness in depth of Jaws, which works so well as a character piece in a drama. And I'm like, you could dress up as any of the nine human leads of Jurassic Park for Halloween and people would know who you are.

[02:32:52] Now they would. You're right. Now they would. And the costuming is not like super broad, but you're like... But you're right. Like Hammond, Ellie... Yeah. I've talked about this with the podcast The Ride Guys where we're like, there's all this Jurassic shit. It's wild they don't have people walking around dressed like Sam Neill because people would lose their fucking minds. That's a good point. Just in the blue shirt. It's not that hard. No, it's very simple. Yeah, just doing a Galaxy's Edge style thing. Yeah. Yeah, that would work. Man, remember Bridge of Spies. Yeah. Do you remember... Absolute, absolute jack of a movie.

[02:33:22] So good. Unbelievable. Do you like Bridge of Spies? Of course. I mean, he's... He doesn't make a lot of that movie. He is still... Yeah. ...as powerful as ever in my opinion. West Side Story and Fablemans is... It's obscene how good those movies are for where he is in his life. Yeah. It is just the thing too of like everyone talks about... I was watching fucking... Tom... What was that sound? I don't know. That sounded like a ghost in the walls. Did it not? Yeah. I don't know. Spielberg is listening. Was that a pipe thing? Yeah, probably.

[02:33:53] Yeah. I don't know. Okay. I don't know. John Hammond's spirit calling out to us. Create once more. Five comedy points. David, here's the thing about hair. It's much more than what you see when you look in the mirror. Oh, interesting. Go on. This is a common misconception that hair is purely, exclusively, a thing you see when you look in the mirror. Okay. In fact, no.

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[02:37:20] Hanks speaking at Oxford. Sure. This went viral a couple years ago, maybe a year or two ago. I just went deep onto this and talking to students and asking questions and whatever. And he was talking about how much for him he is like a director, actor, and it's all about the different collaborations and there are multiple people he's worked with multiple times. They have very different styles and he likes that flexibility and whatever. And they were like, what's it like working with Spielberg? And he was like, here's like the defining story of working with Spielberg is like on the

[02:37:50] post. I had done like four movies with him already at that point or whatever. A lot of the other actors were really nervous about working with him. The script was so like word dense and so precise and accurate that we had to get it right. And the actors were like, Tom, can we please do a rehearsal and work on this? It was one of the scenes where like 10 of the primary actors in the Washington Post office are all like fighting back and forth and whatever. And he was like, sure, I'll be like sort of the team captain and I'll help run all of this. And they work it and they get it word perfect and they feel good about the rhythm because he's like,

[02:38:19] Steven expects you to just show up having done your work. He's not going to hold your hand. You got to show up prepared. And they get to set and Spielberg's like, you know what might be interesting is if the shot is the man carrying the package with the Pentagon papers and we track him over to the desk and he drops it off. And the entire thing they had worked for like two days. None of them are in focus on camera at any point. He shot the entire sequence in one shot. None of them are ever in focus. And he's like, that's the thing with Spielberg is he is like the most incredible

[02:38:48] like multi-dimensional problem solver of he's just like a genius. It's innate where he gets there and he's like, what's the most important thing? What is the thing I need to convey in the scene, whether it's information or feeling? Well, then also he just knows how to visually think about things. Totally. In a very, very innovative way. Yes. Like even at his advanced age. It's not like he's fucking Clint Eastwood but he's an older man. But he's still kind of unparalleled at that. There's so much verve to something like West Side Story. Yes.

[02:39:18] And like it would just be so easy for him to phone some of these movies in and sometimes he does and it's called the BFG. Sure. And most of the times he does not. Very rare though and you know, as I know you can attest, father of a hundred children. I'm the father of just one child and I'm like, I need a sandwich and a nap most of the day. May need sleepy. Now obviously, look, I had this conversation with my dear pal Caitlin about the Mets, about Lindor after his daughter was born, was like playing baseball the next day.

[02:39:49] And she's like, that's crazy. He's an alien. He's an alien. But I'm also like, yes, but of course he's also a wealthy athlete. He has a lot of help. He can get support for his family. You did the trap episode five days after your twins were born. I did. That's a, that's a, that's breaking news. That should go into the Hall of Fame. Uh, yes, that was, that was, but that was hard. That was hard. But I sound okay on it. But you also had also been training for that episode. That is six months writing the profile. Your whole life. Most episodes don't get that level of preparation. The stress of like, will I finish that

[02:40:18] article and see trap and all that stuff as my like, anyway. We knew trap was so close to fucking do day. It was really close. It's almost like you planned it. Yeah. God, the butcher. Finish your point. I'm sorry. I don't remember my point. You're talking about Mets, the guy who played after the daughter. No, no, no. I had, there's no point. Um, I, we were just, I was just saying like Steven Spielberg has, he has the resources at least to be a parent with lots of support, one assumes. Oh, totally. Like he's not going home and being, you know, changing every diaper. Maybe he is.

[02:40:49] Maybe Spielberg can call me out. He's also just gotten more irons on the fire in his world than we do. You know, they'll have podcast people who are having a very calm, quiet experience in a quiet room. Like hundreds of people are reliant upon him every day. Yeah. He like still kind of moves mountains with his every word. It sure seems that way. And something like The Post is a movie obviously that came together like immediately because Spielberg decided like, I think I'll do this right now. Like, right. Like some of his movies take a long time to get made. I mean, this

[02:41:18] post Fablement's period or even to a certain degree post West Side story of like him slowing way down. Sure. Taking long gaps now. He's finally committed to a new movie. He's doing the David Koepp movie, right? But that on paper sounds like a little bit more of a classical Spielberg movie. It does kind of sound like him being like, you know, I didn't do an event movie for the 2020s yet. Right. Fuck it. Why don't I? I could not be more excited. I couldn't either. I mean, so if we're saying like Jaws is that in the 70s. It's Josh O'Connor and.

[02:41:49] Look, the guy casts Emily Blunt. Yeah. Yeah. Is it Emily Blunt? Joshua Conn? Oh my God. I mean, get out of here. There's someone else getting that. Oh, Coleman Domingo. Keep going. This is wonderful. The whole thing, if you're just. Sean Fennessey? If you're just thinking of this kind of movie, right? So in the 70s, it's Jaws. In the 80s, it's Raiders. In the 90s, it's Jurassic Park. Yeah. Like I'm not even mentioning Close Encounters or E.T. Like other gigantic, you know, but in the 2000s, is it

[02:42:18] Minority Report? Is that the closest or is it War of the Worlds? I think it's actually Catch Me If You Can. It's kind of, Legacy actually is Catch Me If You Can. Because that was a, it's not the same kind of genre thing that we're talking about, but it is in a way. It's kind of like a mouse hunt movie. Yes. And it was a huge hit. It sure was. Oh, huge hit. But that's the reason why we had this idea to just do the back half of Spielberg years ago was like, his post-Oscar career is fascinating

[02:42:47] and the choices he makes when he feels like he's been validated at the highest echelons. What does he have to prove anymore? And like this notion in the early 2000s of, oh my God, Tom Cruise and Spielberg are going to work together. That's going to be the biggest movie of all time. The two ultimate crowd pleasers. And they make two movies that are like dark and haunted. Right. And War of the Worlds did not underperform but Minority Report kind of did. They both were hits. But like, Minority Report is, in my opinion, like his second best movie ever.

[02:43:17] I love that movie to death. AI, Minority Report, War of the Worlds on paper, like these classic Spielberg movie incoming. Third best. All three movies rule. But it definitely felt like they were received a little bit like, this is less fun than I thought it would be. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's what's fascinating about his post-9-11 especially. Yeah. He becomes tinged with darkness and by the time, then he does Tintin and War Horse and you're like, oh, he's sort of doing like more of an old boy adventure thing. But War Horse is quite a sad movie. Yeah. Tintin is not.

[02:43:46] And then when he does Ready Player One, that movie's a hit. Like, it was. It was an unambiguous hit. But it was kind of the first time it felt like, eh, I think people are more interested in a different kind of product at this level now. Right? Yeah. Like, that movie went over fine. Yeah. But by that point, it's like, nah, people are seeing the superhero things and like, that's now the sort of definitive version of this kind of entertainment. And Spielberg and Lucas are doing interviews and saying like, eh, this whole thing's gone out of control.

[02:44:16] The blockbusters are gonna collapse. The studios are like, cruising for a bruising. Right. And of course, he was right. He was right. He was right. You look at those quotes and they're insane where he's like, the problem is they make 200, like, 10, 200 million dollars a year. And when three of those start bombing in a year, they're fucked. They're fucked. They can get away with one bombing per year. But what you should do is, and again, I know this episode's coming out six months from now or whatever. But like, what you should do is make a 200 million dollar courthouse musical. Yeah, that's money well spent.

[02:44:45] It is the story of Warner Brothers in 2024. Yes. You know, this is the summer of Furiosa and Horizon and, you know, Joker and DeFoglia did. They had Beetlejuice, which was like an undeniable fucking home run for them and made for like a reasonable budget. And then they made so few films. You look at like Furiosa being a thing that was largely funded by like, you know, Village Roadshow and like Australian film industry. And then like Horizon was a pickup for them. Trap was like a negative pickup for them.

[02:45:15] And then Joker was one of the only movies that they really put all their muscle behind and built themselves. Yep. After mostly selling out on Joker. People forget that Warner Brothers divested itself of a lot of Joker because they didn't believe in that movie and then made a billion dollars. Anyway, and so for Joker 2 they were all in and then it was a pile of dog shit nobody wanted to see. I want to tell the story quickly. Okay. We should talk about the end of Jurassic Park. We should. This is a little link to the end of Jurassic Park. Talking about like Spielberg being a next level problem solver. He's making this movie

[02:45:44] around like historic hurricanes. Yes, crazy hurricanes. Hitting. Right. They're losing days having to like evacuate. Right. And I think at certain points they lost sets entirely. Right. And we're just like well I guess we just have to move on. We can't get any more days out of that location or whatever it was. But there's the story of him just trying to figure out how to get as much footage as he could. What's the latest point we can safely evacuate? Without wanting to put anyone's life in danger. I think being conscious of like I can't be John Hammond

[02:46:13] but how do I squeeze as much out of this safely? And so like he's filming while sending Kathleen Kennedy to figure out how to get people off the island onto a safer place. And she like finds her way to Honolulu gets to the airport is trying to find anyone who can transport the amount of people they still have. And she flags down a guy and is like you, you have like a plane can you fly me out? Wait a second, you look familiar don't you? And he was the fucking guy who played Jock Lindsay in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[02:46:43] A man who was a real life pilot because they need him to fucking fly a plane on camera and then he gets two lines of dialogue. And he was like oh yeah, of course I'll fly you out. Lovely. You took care of me, Kathy. Wow. Yeah. It's just crazy to think of like Jock Lindsay flying out the entire cast of Jurassic Park to safety almost mirroring the end of this movie. It feels like the end of the movie. Yes. It's weird that a movie like this that is so clearly at the absolute center of culture would have an imperiled production.

[02:47:14] You'd think that they would have just built a new soundstage that could have replicated, you know. But there was nothing like that. I know, I know. I'm watching this movie. Even Spielberg making a dinosaur movie it's like yeah okay buddy but try to keep the budget under 70 mil. I was thinking this while watching it where it's like oh this is like as big of a budget we give but there are limits. You know you read quotes and you're just like no movie will ever cost 200 million dollars. It was something people were saying in the early 2000s. But like George Lucas being like fuck it I do Phantom Menace basically self-funding it with merch sales. Like that was

[02:47:43] that's the beginning of like okay like I guess people are writing blank checks for themselves. but yeah exactly like this is still an era where the most powerful person in Hollywood making the most like slam dunk blockbuster premise and being like responsible with his days and his budget. It's like can I have Kurt Russell and they're like Kurt Russell's gonna cost a million dollars. Like no. If you get Kurt Russell you have to lose 20 shots of dinosaurs. Yeah right. We're cutting one of those raptors. Sorry buddy. And if you lose a location or you lose days then you're like

[02:48:12] I guess we cut out like Samuel L. Jackson's death scene and he's really smart about like okay what's the best most effective way to make like a gift out of a mistake. How do you make it more impactful that you don't see him die and that's revealed later. He's still working within like boxing himself into corners. Yeah or kitchen counters. Should we talk about raptors in the kitchen? Sure. Uh cool sequence. Here's a take I had. I don't know like we have largely avoided this

[02:48:42] but like it is hard to talk about Jurassic Park in some ways like the raptors in the kitchen is a really effective and terrifying sequence. I just find myself saying like this was cool like a lot of the time watching it. This is the mirrored you know when she's hiding in the sliding doors and the mirrored shot and where the raptor runs right into it I'm just like that's just cool. That's just a cool idea for a movie shot. And falling over too is so perfect. You're like the weird clumsiness of them is sort of terrifying in a way and the way they're you can hear their claws on the metal where you're just like

[02:49:12] again you're like this is wrong. A raptor shouldn't be in a kitchen. Right? Raptors belong in 65 million years ago. Well excuse me David anyone can cook. Don't say a raptor shouldn't be in a kitchen. That's my gusto. Even just explaining well like unless they can open doors and then hard cut to a door handle opening you know like the most dumb shit but effective emotionally engaging filmmaking. So brilliant. Here was a thought I had while watching it this time and I don't mean to put the two franchises on the same level or put any of those films

[02:49:42] on the level of this film in particular but but I was watching it and I was just like this sort of like haunted house like pressure cooker the dinosaurs here the persons here hanging on the silence of as you said like the sounds of the claw tapping and the feel of like the pressure the barks posing in yeah that is a thing that like you know Lost World nails and that one sequence dangling over the cliff but it's the most supersized version of it and it feels like the later films don't even try to really emulate it's become an entirely

[02:50:11] different thing I do think it's kind of the secret juice to the Quiet Place movies sure is they are the best modern evocations of what works so well in Jurassic of just like tight cast good actors you characterize them well and it's just about like you know how these creatures work you put them in long sort of like one of my big problems with that franchise which I think is like a solid all of those movies are watchable I agree I like all I'm a big defender of that series in part because of what Griffin is saying I don't think any of them are masterpieces

[02:50:41] but that is why they work they're good because of the humans I find the monsters boring and kind of boring to look at I like how they work is fine but they're also trying to do the same Jurassic Park thing of like don't show them too much like show some restraint don't answer too much it's a good example of like what a digitally created creature its limitations because if there was a practical version of that creature in those movies it actually would be more effective even though they're moving fast it would be so cool and the fact that they can move

[02:51:10] supernaturally fast is lame I agree I agree yeah sorry what are you typing my wife's asking how it's going must be nice okay we mentioned it but I feel like there's so many stories about this it's not in the dossier that the decision to have the T-Rex re-enter sure and sort of quote unquote have the hero moment at the end was a later decision sure and is a brilliant one

[02:51:40] right where it's like how do we deal with the raptors how do you kill because if it just ends with them shooting raptors with shotguns yes that's kind of lame but smart is also you kind of show how meaningless this is yeah you're like these dinosaurs had no specific ire for these humans right they're just sort of like out for blood but this like it feels it finally clicked for me watching it this time that it feels very Godzilla of like you know Godzilla starts out as like the most terrifying thing you could ever imagine happening to

[02:52:10] humanity right and then Godzilla exists as a franchise for decades that is introduce a new monster and the only way to solve it is for Godzilla to kill that monster and you're like come on is Godzilla our friend no Godzilla is still scary we still can't control Godzilla but if Godzilla can knock down Hedorah then we're fine with Godzilla I mean I'm not that versed in the Godzilla movies and I have the big criterion booklet uh you know thingy right yeah it's a beautiful which is such

[02:52:39] a wonderful thing yes and as I slowly watch all of my discs I'm like watching every disc that I've never seen before or barely remember right so I recently had to watch Rambo Last Blood great because I bought like a Rambo box set and uh have you seen Rambo Last Blood horrendous a truly like congressional inquiry level like what the fuck happened wildly racist so racist exceedingly unnecessarily violent where you're like why does Rambo have to be so racist yeah very very confusing like even though the earlier ones

[02:53:09] are sort of like somewhat paternalistic about like the people in other countries this one's just like no Mexicans are scum but also a franchise that was like built on how disillusioned he was with America yeah and then such a contained story has nothing to do with going overseas and murdering people it's just very strange because like Rambo 4 Rambo right that one yeah it's kind of bad but like it's got like awesome throat ripping and shit and you're like yeah this sucks but like who cares Rambo 5 you're like this is like mean spirited

[02:53:39] like this is horrible anyway I will one day watch all the Godzillas but my experience of Godzilla is only movies about how Godzilla is so scary you know what I mean this is why I'm making this analogy you're right in the later films where Godzilla has to defeat a greater threat yes part of what I think is so fascinating about Godzilla movies is that Godzilla still remains scary yes that it's still like okay he's at least like we share a common enemy but we can't control this thing and this thing's existence in our

[02:54:08] world is like terrifying right and I think Spielberg nails that moment of like there is triumphant oh my god great the T-Rex is solving our problems it's distracting the velociraptors we can literally just drive a ray but it's also scary that they're in a fucking room with a T-Rex there's a difference though like Godzilla is while they share this sort of like man's misshapen creation origin story Godzilla is like a vengeful god

[02:54:41] what has been done to the world a representation of our worst you know creation post the war T-Rex is just a fucking eating monster it's just I'm hungry get out of my way which is way scarier like there's no intentionality other than like I need food in my belly so it is it's very satisfying I find when the raptors are getting taken out and shout out to that raptor that tried to jump on T-Rex's back it's a bold move get the fuck off of me and throws him into a skeleton

[02:55:12] but the T-Rex it is a power unto itself yes oh god it's so good and then the banner coming down yeah fuck you just made you come just like a moment that he has the judgment to execute properly where if anyone else did it you'd be like you're fucking gilding the lily here and it's like he just knows the right speed for the banner to fall the timing of when it should start been here we've mostly

[02:55:42] been chilling but like I can pop this score again they get in the copter Alan's sleeping yeah and everyone's like by the way Hammond hate your park zero out of ten F- and he's like agree see you later you end on Laura Dern quietly processing everything looking at everyone digesting it's all on her face everyone walks out so happy yeah who walks out of this movie unhappy but like this movie just settles itself it's like you know what they need to do they need to leave the island the second they're in the helicopter two lines of dialogue three maximum

[02:56:12] and then it's just looks there's no like John Hammond holding a press conference announcing his apology to the world remind me what is how does the book end isn't there like more about what they do to the island am I misremembering that the island like falls apart more significantly like there's like a fire from what I right like it's like the island is more powerfully destroyed and like Malcolm is still on it and I think they like fucking napalm it that's what they like

[02:56:42] that's why you're like Malcolm's dead and that's why when then they told Crichton like uh write a sequel buddy it better be called Jurassic Park 2 and it better have dinosaurs in it he was like I don't write sequels and they were like yes you do like they cock a shotgun here's a five million dollar machine gun and they're like by the way Jeff Goldblum completely rocked in that movie so he's the star of the next one and he's like I killed that character yeah I didn't die what who cares I survived the napalm I just dodged the napalm

[02:57:12] I guess but the novel also ends with some kind of like clever kind of movie-esque report of like and then weird reports of like odd migrating animals in Costa Rica like behaving unusually and you're like okay they got out and they don't do that here this movie doesn't like feel the need to tie up any loose ends it doesn't feel the need to set up new threads for sequels to pick on it just ends because the humans have made it off the island it's over like which

[02:57:42] by the way Jaws does as well like Jaws is just like the shark's dead movie over 100% let's swim off getting back to land hugging their wives both franchises inspired several unnecessary often uninspired sequels so this I think is a fascinating quote from premiere magazine may 1997 when lost world is coming out Spielberg said I didn't think it was a perfect film and it wasn't so close to my heart that I need to protect the integrity of a follow-up by preventing anyone else from doing one which I certainly had the right to do among the films that I

[02:58:11] really think are good movies and that I've directed it's not even in the top five but there was such an outpouring of demand from the public thousands and thousands of letters and so after all those years of denying them the sequel to ET which he famously considered and developed but was also like I can't find a way into that right yeah I couldn't face the same nine-year-old now saying okay so you're not going to make a sequel to ET I understand how personal it was to you so why are you not making the sequel Jurassic Park and I had no answer to that that because this movie was kind

[02:58:41] of just like pure exercise for him he was like well there's nothing like sacred that I don't want to touch upon the only other thing he sequelizes himself is Indiana Jones which is designed to be a franchise and part of Lucas like bringing him on was you have to commit to make three I want these to be ongoing but he steps away from Jaws he like kills his own ET sequel this is the only other time that he does it do some show lore for me right now what is your version of the lost world

[02:59:11] what is the thing that you've thousands of letters about that people desperately want you to do oh I guess it's another performance review oh let's do one yeah of what but it's we haven't found the right thing in the early days of the show when we were doing when we were purely a podcast about the Star Wars prequels we started doing a thing called the performance review where we would go through every cast member and write them pass or fail to judge whether or not the acting was good in those movies and then we did it again for the entire Marvel cinematic universe

[02:59:41] on Patreon an episode where we fight with Chris Cuthard about the last Jedi for an hour yeah but we also find a very convincing Sebastian Stan lookalike on reddit who does the discoveries in those episodes are great and people are often looking for when will there be another thing they have covered in its entirety that feels well suited for a performance review we're also arguing about the performances of like the 80th credited actor is still interesting okay and I don't know what it is yeah I don't know Jurassic Park

[03:00:11] like you could zoom out and do whole Jurassic franchise but I don't I mean it's the fast movies is it not well if if we cover the fast movies I argue we almost have to do a performance review and it's so perfect for that because there are a lot of like oh I forgot about Cole Hauser you know I forgot about like right this this guy who's only in a couple of them or whatever yeah um I feel like that's the one I see people obviously everyone's always demanding that one that's psychotic that's our ET2 night skies that's the one that people think they want

[03:00:40] and they should be thanking us for never doing it what's that on the rewatchables because you guys did Pulp Fiction so what is it now probably almost famous though for the CR you've never done almost famous no why Juliet Lippman who I've worked with for many many years has said if she is not included in that episode she will immediately leave the company when it was published so that's a bold threat that she's made I don't know there's probably a couple of other Sicario for Chris oh sure

[03:01:09] you gotta do that Chris is waiting for Sicario he has not received it yet he's waiting for his night vision goggles but I'm wondering if there's is there a movie that people have been waiting like a singular film from you guys yeah because it's different with like the director prism where people are like I want this whole series Lynch was a huge one so what's the next huge one after that I mean PTA yeah right there's the obvious tier of like PTA Wes Tarantino then there's the sort of

[03:01:39] personal like people want to hear David Goham on Peter Weir me Goham on 70s Altman Ben Goham on Ernest Dickerson yeah man Bones Bones baby Bones back in the news here in October you know people are watching Bones again they're digging it Bonestober oh wow yeah Bones is back okay great I love it was it a porch movie Bones yeah was it a porch movie you think that thing was watching Doors you think there was a fucking roof over Ben's head when he was watching Bones fan of Bones I said

[03:02:09] fetch me another blanket I've got more Bones to watch this movie was a very big hit it opened June 11th 1993 50 million dollars which I think was a record at the time it grossed well wait a second because I don't want to get fooled here by the re-releases or whatever it grossed about 350 million dollars yeah domestic it's now at 415 and one bill worldwide I think it was slightly under for its original release that was re-released several times

[03:02:39] a big push in the 2010s when they started re-releasing American blockbuster classics in 3D was like get these movies back in American theaters but also foreign markets were not as developed right now Titanic a ton of money right never got to play in Asia like all these things this is a version of the kind of hidden money of Hollywood that there is like constantly churning up an extra 50 75 million dollars against these properties they did the 20th anniversary Jurassic 3D which by the way I think that conversion is quite good

[03:03:08] and the Jaws 3D conversion is also quite good unsurprisingly the way that Spielberg just shoots and blocks and edits things works pretty seamlessly in 3D because he just builds that kind of depth into his compositions and isn't frenetically you know cutting in a way that would disorient you that 3D re-release made like 40 million here and made like 400 million everywhere else yes it was just short of the domestic record E.T. kept the domestic record at 359 but it

[03:03:38] beat it worldwide got it and Spielberg as you say does agree to do the sequel because he's almost like I don't give a shit about Jurassic Park which is the guarantor of I need to remind everyone that I'm Steven Spielberg before I go off and start making some weirder things I think Lost World is a very flawed movie but it does have very effective sequences and some fun casting I think Jurassic Park 3 is tons of fun but disposable

[03:04:08] I think all of the world movies are quite bad but the J.A. Bayona one hey excuse me show some respect for our guest here thank you but the J.A. Bayona one has the only good idea really of all of them which is the haunted house sequence is sort of fun it has sequences I had J.A. on the big picture for that movie because I love to interview I had Fede Alvarez on for Romano's because I love to interview filmmakers like that when they get put in the franchise chair

[03:04:38] and I agree he brought the orphanage to Jurassic Park and that's just the one time where you're like this is something it's a take he had a take it's not totally effective but there are things about that movie I like I mean I think if they had hired J.A. Bayona to develop his own Jurassic movie from scratch I probably would like that movie that movie is tore between two poles of this weird franchise management of the idea of the sanctity of the Jurassic World

[03:05:07] trilogy and just letting a fun director make a fun dinosaur movie that was good Dominion is like a completely insane film it's almost like it's incohesed Dominion so incoherent it's sort of astonishing still made a billion dollars Jurassic Park opened number one what's number two Griffin can you just tell me in June 1993 yes what's number two is it a new release has it been out for a while

[03:05:37] it's been out for three weeks it is a star driven action film that is good is lethal weapon three no it's not the fugitive nope distributor please Sony Columbia Sony Columbia star driven it's not high concept you know in the line of fire nope star driven it's a big star a sort of a minted star a recent star minted star

[03:06:06] kind of an aging star but this is his last gasp I think of true A-list stardom he makes some very fun action pictures in the early 90s before becoming a parody of himself he was always a parody of himself but it's Sylvester Stallone in Cliffhanger the Rennie Harlan I'd argue that's his last like a studio blockbuster Demolition Man is the same year and I would agree that's that's the end of him being in fun good movies right yeah

[03:06:36] would you agree Sean you peep that Demolition Man arrow box at David have a soft spot for Walter Hill's a bullet in the head that's that's that's later but sure film I like there are not a lot of films from the next 30 years of his career that I like that's arguably him pivoting to being a bit of a B-movie star yes after being like one of the most titanic movie stars who could get anything made at any budget level cliffhanger though excellent yeah very enjoyable cliffhanger is very fun

[03:07:07] uh cliffhanger and demolition man rock and then writes the specialist judge dread assassins daylight which is sort of okay the other ones I just mentioned are not copland is him being like what do you think and then but then when he doesn't get an Oscar nomination he's like then thank you I won't try that right that's a bad run and then he goes to straight to DVD and then he's back as Rambo Jesus talking a lot of Stallone okay number three at the box office is a comedy okay sort of an odd couple comedy

[03:07:37] is it house no I was I was putting out the one I was like a house guest no um it is so it's not really okay okay oh so the hint was wrong it's not really the thing about me calling it an odd couple comedy is it is that sort of but you know what the movie is yes it's the stars became a couple and there's a very famous thing that happened involving

[03:08:07] them that was sort of sanctioned internally because they were a couple but is now something you hear about and your jaw hits the floor in the history of this show this is one of the funniest movies to try to do I know even can you restate what you just said it's like so the the two stars of this movie I believe became a couple right did they start because of this movie I'm not sure might have predated that but yes they were and one of the male star then did something not for film but he did something that

[03:08:37] was seen by people sort of a promotional act and it's something that you're not supposed to do it's an offensive thing two huge stars at the time but he kind of quote unquote could do it back then because he was dating the woman here oh my god I think that's what you know what the fuck you know what it is it's not it's not Hugh Grant or Eddie Murphy no it's a TV star whose movie career was not nothing but like he never quite was a movie star he got

[03:09:06] permission because permission is to be clear kind of strong because what he did is not good I have solved it yes the film is called made in America that is correct and you are speaking of Ted Danson's friars club in blackface speech correct to tribute his then girlfriend who he had left his wife who was in a coma for was that right didn't he have a wife who was gravely ill I'm not sure about that part although it's possible it's just

[03:09:36] funny that everything about Ted Danson I feel like is now just such a beloved celebrity right like actor too good actor really like really an iconic tv person but his partnership with Mary Steenburgen is so beloved and then like if you go back you're like oh some bumps in the road here those photos are astonishing of him in the full get up and whoopee like clapping like he was in like minstrel blackface like it

[03:10:08] when you see pictures of it you're like what the fuck is going on this Ted Danson this was not like a Kentucky fairgrounds event in 1958 this is 1993 that this happened he is just ending his run as the star of the most beloved sitcom in the world crazy thing that happened like 11 seasons of triumph but no that's right I was struggling with made in America is like what is it made in America there's a DNA test is she related to

[03:10:38] Ted Danson no no it's Will Smith is her son right and Ted was the sperm donor right so it's sort of an odd couple comedy and he's like a huckster used car salesman is that right yeah he's like oh my god I got a cowboy hat and she's like what I'm Wiffy Goldberg we're so different he wants to meet his dad and then they meet and they don't get along and then they do fall in love I've never seen it it's also again it's a Richard Benjamin movie Will Smith's first movie it's certainly his first significant it's after six degrees of separation

[03:11:09] interesting maybe right before it it's the same year I'm not sure which came out first it's right before it just a some big movies he made hits he made my favorite year he made mermaids but he also made some true stinkers Richard Benjamin's star of Westworld but also

[03:11:39] director of Marcy X I enjoy Milk Money oh I've never seen that where classic hooker with a heart of gold formulation starring Melanie Griffith and some young boys in Ed Harris charming film very good in Last of Sheila Richard Benjamin he's a good actor married to one of my all time crushes Paul Apprentice oh wow so that's number three that's a wild movie yep number four at the box office is not a movie I am that familiar with

[03:12:08] it is from Disney but it is a grown up legal thriller so was it a touchdown Hollywood pictures release it looks like it was Hollywood pictures and starring two you know real R-rated actors you know what I mean I've just seen this for the first time this year you know

[03:12:38] what this is it's a Sidney Lumet movie okay you know what I mean by two actors where it's like if they're in a movie the movie is rated R those two stars million percent yes they don't show up

[03:12:53] they don't show he's

[03:13:24] and you know it's ridge his last 10 years have quietly been on fire I feel like he's one of those guys where I'm he's kind of like Brandon Nimmo, where I'm just like, I don't want to hear a thing about who you vote for or why. I just want you to give fantastic workman-like performances on screen as scumbags and villains. Reminded of the things I already know about you. I love you so much in movies and I don't want to think about anything else. Thank you very much. He has very comfortably settled into

[03:13:53] I'm just a shit heel and everything and it works every time. I feel like it kind of starts with Eastbound and Down where you're like, who is Kenny's dad going to be? And then the reveal, you're like, that's weirdly perfect. He's in on the joke and then he's just had this really good run since then. He's great in Knives Out. Wow. You watched every LeMet for that episode? I did. What do you put at the absolute bottom? The last of the blah, blah, blah hotshots.

[03:14:22] The last of the mobile hotshots. Yeah, with James Coburn. That's your dead last. It's terrible. I've never seen that. I love LeMet. Bye Bye Braverman is hard to watch. I have a lot of blind spots. I'm probably holding more against it because of like context. Gloria for me feels like the pit. It's so pointless. And like, why did you do this? So pointless. Yeah. He's got some real stinkers. Yeah. But also like 10 of the greatest movies. The top 10 is extraordinary. He made a lot of fucking movies. Number five at the box office came up on our draft

[03:14:52] that we did recently with Sean. The comedy. Our president draft. That's right. Is it the movie Dave? It's the movie Dave. The best president movie ever made in my opinion. A very, very fun film that was a very solid hit. You've also got in the top 10 Menace to Society. I recently watched my Criterion 4K of that. Congratulations. An incredibly impressive film that is so, so, so upsetting and dark. You've got Life with Mikey. Yeah. That's Michael J. Fox.

[03:15:22] Michael J. Fox, right? As a child talent agent. David Krumholtz's debut film. Oh. Friend of the show. Never seen. You've got Hot Chart Part Deux. I don't think that's the title. Do you want to take a second take on that? Hot Shots. Hot Shots. Part Deux. Yeah. Do you want me to do it like that? Yeah. If Ben's giving it a thumbs up, I'm also giving it a thumbs up. I've seen both Hot Shots movies, but not in a long time, and I cannot remember which is which. I've seen Hot Shots Part Deux probably 15 times, and I think Hot Shots one time.

[03:15:51] Hot Shots Part Deux is the one where he's got the chicken on the poster. It's the Rambo. Right. Yes. And Hot Shots one is more of like a Top Gun thing. Hot Shots one is like straight up Top Gun, and Hot Shots Part Deux is everything. It's just action movies. This is the number one American film featuring the word duh in the title, and number two is Joker fully a duh. Okay. Very true. What was the final domestic gross on Hot Shots Part Deux, and will Joker have outgrossed it by the time this episode comes out? I think it will,

[03:16:20] because the final gross is 38. And as much as Joker 2 is underperforming, it's underperforming in the Marvel sense. Yeah, it opened to 37. Right. Number nine at the box office is another erotic thriller of some renown at this point. Sliver, the William Friedkin. Sorry, that's the Philip Noyce movie. William Friedkin is Jade. Right. Jade is unhinged. Sliver is bad. Sliver is Billy Baldwin? Yes, and a Joe Esterhaus script, and Sliver is awful. I'm ready for a reclamation.

[03:16:50] Sliver is a good idea. But like, everyone's reclaiming every piece of 90s erotica trash right now, and some of them like Jade, you're like, Jade has juice. Jade is a flawed movie. Also inspires one of the greatest jokes in movies history. 40-year-old version. Be like David Caruso in Jade. Caruso's amazing in Jade. Did you know that Sliver is based on an Ira Levin novel? Yes, I did, and I recently watched Sliver. I do not know why. I cannot remember what I was thinking watching that movie, but it's... Doesn't it have a good idea about surveillance in it? Yes, it's...

[03:17:19] William Baldwin is the, like, head of the apartment building, and he can, like, has cameras that look at people, and, like, there's this sort of voyeurism thing going on. Yeah, that is a good idea. Worked for the Dark Knight and Morgan Freeman, you know? It's good enough for him. No questions asked. Not good enough for Sliver? Helps him catch the Joker. Yeah. To go full circle back, talking about Jurassic being, like, the blockbuster that people are still trying to chase, I think the only three things since then that have similarly made Hollywood go,

[03:17:48] like, how do we replicate that, are The Dark Knight, Avengers, and Endgame. Uh, right, right, right. And in all cases, every time they tried to follow it, it, like, danger. I think there are some caveats to that. Okay. I think Lord of the Rings, Avatar, and Twilight are all so influential in particular ways. Maybe not quite the same where Jurassic Park just felt like it ate America for six weeks. Yes. But those three movies I always think of

[03:18:17] because there have been so many, you know, there is no Game of Thrones without Lord of the Rings. There is no... Lord of the Rings is at the tippy-top of influence, for sure. But here's the other thing. Outside of Avatar, all of those are adapting huge pre-existing material that has existed in the culture for decades, whether, whereas... Avatar was adapting for Angoli, so that's pretty huge, too. The fact that Jurassic Park is like, here's this book that came out, the movie's gonna be out in six months. Right, right. It's very different. Speaking of adapting huge material, number 10 of the box office, of course, is Rocky Morton and Anibal Jenkel's

[03:18:47] great Super Mario Brothers, in which Bob Hoskins looks like he wants to die every minute he's on screen, and John Leguizamo is having fun. Isn't the story that John Leguizamo on set was like, you ever play the game? And Bob Hoskins was like, what game? No, it's better than that. The story on set is that they were all drinking heavily. This is what Leguizamo and Hoskins say, particularly. No, there's this amazing clip of Hoskins being like, I told my kids, you know, Super Mario Brothers,

[03:19:16] and my kids were like, oh, the game. He was like, what game? And they showed me this game, and they see this guy going, and I was like, I played King Lear. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And it's so funny. Did you get that box out? No, should I? That movie is really so ingrained in my heart because I saw it as a kid and was just like, I love this, which is so insane because obviously it does no effort at really adapting what those games are like. Look, our friend Patrick Willems did a really good video

[03:19:46] that was like... It's a hostile movie. Yeah, let people make sloppy adaptations again. Right. It was like, don't we have a certain romanticism for the era where people didn't care about the material? Not just the era where they didn't care, but where studios were like, it better not resemble that video game in any way. Right. And they're like, yeah, no, we want to do like a steampunk lizard movie. And they're like, sounds good. Buy a beloved thing and be like, now obviously this thing is for losers and virgins. And Illumination. Don't make anything that resembles it. Right. They're like, yeah, we need this movie

[03:20:15] to have gears and bombs and shit. And then like, now Illumination makes Super Mario Brothers and that movie basically is just like sucking your dick all day about like, don't you love fucking Toad? And I'm just like, I don't care about Toad. I'm dreading the day my daughter discovers Princess Peach. Like it is fucking curtains that day happens. It's going to be Princess Peach all day. Yeah, because Princess Peach is tough because like, I know they empower her now and she's an adventurous character and stuff. Girl boss Princess Peach. She's wearing a pink ass dress.

[03:20:43] Her name is Princess Peach. Yeah. And she talks like this. Like it's tough to kind of. She's the witch from The Witch, you know, and you tell her she's like, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Viriosa is Princess Peach. I do like, um, Super Mario Brothers, the movie. I do like it. That's a film. I like it. Yeah. And Samantha Mathis is really hot in it. Yeah. And Dennis Hopper's having fun. Yeah, we're done. We're done. We did a long time on Jurassic Park. It was great. Hey, I want to shout out one thing at the end here. Please.

[03:21:13] The video game on Sega Genesis. Video game is fun. I don't think I played that. What was the, what was the idea? It's a platformer, right? You know, it's a. Scroll? Side scroll? Yeah. Side scroll. You could play as Dr. Grant or as a Velociraptor. Okay, that's cool. Yes, that's right. Yeah. What was your mission if you were a raptor? To eat kids? I think you were just basically fighting other dinosaurs. Okay. It pretty much was like the same character you could just swap out.

[03:21:42] Do you know what I'm saying? You would have different like fighting techniques or what have you. I always ask this when I talk about 90s games. Better or worse than the Simpsons arcade game? Well, that's the best game ever made. That's, is that not the greatest experience you had as a kid playing an arcade game? I think it is. But I had the Simpsons Bart versus the Evil Mutants game that is so fucking hard. I don't think I planned that. It's like if Super Cool Sing Ghosts was harder, like it's so difficult and I must have played that first level

[03:22:12] a million times just because I was like this is a Simpsons video game. I'm enjoying this. Was that on Genesis? I think it was initially on like the Master System. Maybe I had it on a Game Gear. Can I talk about the toys for one minute? And then we're done. Yeah. Much like the bidding war for the rights to the movie itself when the book went on the market everyone was fighting for the toys and then they got the rights and then they were like wait, what did we just buy? What is proprietary? Anyone can make dinosaurs. You don't need a license for that. Right. And it is one of the smartest strategic branding things.

[03:22:42] Kenner and Hasbro held onto the license for like 25 years until eventually Mattel took it away in the Jurassic World sequels. But their big innovation was come up with a logo which was the JP stamp. Do you remember this? All the dinosaur toys had this logo that was like a J and a P combined and the ads were all like look for the JP to know it's a real Jurassic Park toy. They created this attitude of yeah, sure you could go to a museum and buy a fucking figure of a T-Rex but if you don't have

[03:23:11] the JP stamp on the schoolyard that's not the real thing. It was really, really smart but also this movie was so fast-tracked that they started making the toys of the human characters without any reference material. So this is what Wayne Knight looked like. Right. That's an icon. I know about that. That's my favorite example. That he looks like an action man. All of them are really funny and then like a year later they went back around and made them look a little more accurate but that's the best one. Yeah. That's really funny. Jurassic Park. Sean, thank you. Any final thoughts? Yes.

[03:23:41] I just, you know I always feel blessed to be able to pop with you guys. Oh, come on. Shut the fuck up. Get the fuck out of here. Everyone should obviously listen to the big picture and to the rewatchables. Thanks. I set my clock to it. It stabilizes my week. I think it's just a shame we're not on the same coast. It is. I feel like it's nice to be here. You've built a very special space. We like our space. I'd like to doff my cap to Ben for all the fine work he's done in crafting this space. Ben really is the homemaker. Some innovations in this performance style. You know

[03:24:11] I've made a pot or two in my time and not quite in this formulation that we're in right now and now I'm going to take it back to me to the great city of Los Angeles and say hey at Blank Check Productions they might be on to something. We will because we'll post pictures sometimes of us recording people who are like why are the desks so far apart? I've always imagined most photos I've seen in podcasts where everyone's crammed around one table and that's what we always were back in the day when we were at other studios and other networks and then coming out of the pandemic we recorded in Ben's living room

[03:24:40] where we had to like assemble and de-assemble equipment very quickly and our beloved editors started giving you notes and being like you know what if you moved further apart if you went to these corners if you had furniture relative to this it was sort of a long exploratory process that landed on Ben realizing this works right? Yeah. Yeah. It's fantastic. What a pleasure Jurassic Park. Jurassic Park. Does it get any better? Is it better or worse

[03:25:10] to do just a truly five star masterpiece? I think the best episodes are like rollerball like I think I think the episode to do that's most fun as a guest is usually just some absolute dog shit but Jurassic Park is fun to talk about. Yeah. Like I think if you were doing Raiders that'll be hard who's doing Raiders? Well let's not say it in case something changes. But I know who wants to do it. Yes. Okay. So I'll come back for like Quintet. Yeah. That's what you want to do. You want to put your name down for Quintet? The chess one? Yeah. I've never seen that.

[03:25:39] Arctic Human Chess. So you still get to do Paul Newman which I love. Yeah. And then just the fiasco of fiascos from my favorite. Yes. Paul Newman did like three fiascos with Altman but that's number one. He did two. He did Buffalo Bill and Quintet back to back. Right. And on paper it's like oh how cool Paul Newman knows that he should work with Robert Altman anti-western and like sci-fi concept movie and it's like arguably his two worst films? Could be. Yeah. Could be. Buffalo Bill is really boring. I've seen that one. It is so boring. Yeah.

[03:26:08] You know what's really boring? Quintet. Quintet. I'm imagining the riffs and the bits in the quintet pod. Quintet. I'm calling it quintet that should be the thing that children are writing us letters demanding we do. Quintet. Well now Sean will be on it. Okay great. Don't have to do the credits Griff. I know. No I know. I wasn't going to do that. I was going to say something different. Thank you for being here Sean. Thanks guys. Tune in next week for Schindler's List and a movie that will hopefully be easy enough to talk about. I think so. We're going to have a guest

[03:26:37] who feels very strongly about that movie and has a lot to say. Yeah. And is a friend of ours. Okay. And as always we were so preoccupied wondering if we could make this episode over three hours. We didn't consider whether or not we should make this episode over three hours. I agree with that. Wait where's Marie? You want her here? Just like in a box? I've not met Marie. Wow. You should meet Marie. You should meet Marie. What the hell? I think I was sitting in the same row

[03:27:06] as her at the screen of Queer that I was at. She was definitely and I was going to say something. You should have said. So wait this is interesting. Talk about our listeners assuming we're all crowded around one small table. You listen to the show and think that Marie's just in the corner of the episode? Even if she doesn't talk? Sometimes it happens. I love Marie episodes. Marie rules. Marie episodes. I eagerly look forward to them. So I was hoping she would be sitting in the room. Next time let's get Marie in here for you. I don't know. Let's all hang out. I'm getting on a plane now.

[03:27:36] I know you're going next time. You literally have your bags. I brought my bags. You're going to JFK? I am. You're taking the helicopter? You're going to have to explain to me what's the best way to get there from here. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by

[03:28:06] Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod.

[03:28:33] Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by BlankCheck Productions.