The Sugarland Express with Esther Zuckerman

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_07] The true story of a podcast who took on all of Texas in almost once.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_06] Oh. Okay, so I found three different posters for this movie. All of them have very weird taglines.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_05] Because this was a movie no one knew how to sell. You can tell by when you look at the three posters where you're like, this is three attempts at getting it across.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_06] I want to take the, let me recite the three at-bats. The one unifying element is all of them were like, Goldie Hawn picture? Big face, big Goldie, please. We have one undeniable movie star, a Academy Award winning movie star.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_05] But the one you're quoting from this one, like it looks like she's just having a ball.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_06] She's on the poster twice. Yes. She's having a way more. She's just smiling. Her giant smiling painted face directly below it, her holding a shotgun. The true story of a girl who took on all of Texas and almost won. Okay? Then there's this one, which is my favorite graphic poster for the movie. That's the poster I think of. I think it's the best image.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_05] With the teddy bear.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_06] Right. And her smile in that is a little more demented in a way that comes closer to representing the film where it's like, this is a woman on edge. Uh, the tagline is a girl with a great following. Every cop in the state was after her. Everybody else was behind her. And then the third poster I found the tagline is this true, but incredible event happened in Texas in 1969, which, and it's just big Goldie Hawn shotgun, Goldie Hawn and the trigger land.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_05] That's definitely not like, obviously, everyone's always made fun of like based on a true story being a selling point. But like based on a true story is supposed to come after your tagline. Correct. It can't just be like, this happened. And I'm like, okay, what happened? Well, Goldie Hawn. Yeah. And there were cars. You won't believe it.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_06] She had a gun. It's just the first two taglines almost tell this like something about Mary. Right. Everyone's after Goldie. A whole line of police cops. Like, I, this is a hard movie to sell, but I can understand how it was weirdly received at the time, especially if you're like expecting just a Goldie Hawn vehicle.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_05] I understand, of course, why they were like, let's sell this a Goldie Hawn vehicle, not as a ensemble piece, which is what it is. As you're saying, Goldie Hawn was an Oscar winning star.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02] A William Atherton vehicle.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_05] We got Atherton.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_06] We're going to talk about Atherton. We will. But this is Goldie is five years past her Oscar win. She's a big star. Like, she's like, probably in post Oscar win era.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03] What does she win for?

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02] Cactus Flower.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_06] Cactus Flower. Cactus Flower.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02] Have you ever seen Cactus Flower?

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_06] Should we say it in Walter Massow, Ingrid Bergman, Cactus Flower, introducing Goldie Hawn as Tony. Cactus Flower. Have you guys seen it? I've never seen it.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02] I write about it in my book. Yes, in your book, which we'll talk about.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_05] Cactus Flower is incredibly charming.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02] It's really cute.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_05] I mean... And she's good in it, but she's...

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02] She plays a girl who's in love with Walter Matthau.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_05] Walter Matthau is this... Is a fuddy-duddy dentist. Ingrid Bergman, who fucking rocks in it. Really?

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02] It's so funny.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_05] Is like his shrinking violet, you know, who really... Assistant nurse.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_06] She had done Laughin and that was her first real movie. I'm saying Ingrid Bergman?

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_05] No, I'm sorry. Ingrid Bergman, of course, was a main cast member on Laughin. And of course, her first film was Cactus Flower. Yeah. Everything else she was uncredited. Casablanca, uncredited.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02] And Goldie is like this hippie.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_05] She's a hippie. She won an Oscar for playing the first hippie in a movie. It's really how it felt.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02] Who like says she's gonna kill herself. So Walter Matthau decides to tell her that he'll marry her, but he has to get divorced from his wife first. But he doesn't have a wife. So then he asks Ingrid Bergman to like pretend to be his wife. And then obviously, like he and Ingrid Bergman fall in love. And then there's this other young hottie who Goldie falls in love with.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_06] It is it is an Americanized, modernized adaptation of a French farce stage play. And it's one of those movies you watch it and then someone's like based on French farce. You're like, oh, OK, OK. Decades later, it was remade by Adam Sandler and Dennis Dugan as Just Go With It. Yes. Same basic plot line. In which Brooklyn Decker plays the Goldie Hawn. Right. I mean, again, the old. And Aniston plays the Isabella Rossellini or Ingrid Bergman. Ingrid Bergman. Yes.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_06] Who is Isabella Rossellini Senior. They should have gotten Rossellini to play. They should have. That would have been good. We were talking about Rossellini right before the war.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_05] Is Sandler the Matthau of his time?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04] Kind of. In his hand doggy.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01] Kind of.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_06] Different styles in a way. But like, yeah. If Sandler announced tomorrow he was doing a Pelham 123 style.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that's so good. That would be so good.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_05] Well, because we like Sandler in New York mode.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_06] We all experienced at the thought of that. Well, we just like him to be rumpled and New York-y. Sandler in a shitty suit. As Pat Alvarez put it. Eating a stale hot dog looking hungover. Just going.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_05] My favorite description of that. Well, like Matthau in Cactus Flower isn't rumpled. He's playing like, it's like when you watch Mad Men and you're like, these kind of chubby guys with glasses would like pull babes. And it's like, yeah, man, New York in the 60s. It's like, you know. It's the pat-

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_06] And that's Matthau. The pat line I love is that like, the 70s were such a weird time for movies that your action films would be like, only one guy can stop this and the camera pans over to Walter Matthau in a crumpled suit eating a stale hot dog.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_05] It's so true. True. But that's what she won her Oscar for. And if I'm not wrong, she's only had one nom apart from that. Private Benjamin. She got nominated for Private Benjamin, right? Yeah. But is that it? Yeah. Yes. Let's find out.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_06] But she, Laughin starts the year before Cactus Flower comes out. Now, this is a time when actors and they look, there's a lot of words. What we're talking about on early Spielberg, transitioning from TV to film was difficult. And she's transitioning from a sketch show to film. And then her first movie, she wins an Oscar. And then her follow up movies are There's a Girl in My Soup.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02] I have not seen that one.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_06] Great, great title. Dollar Sign. Yeah. Dollar Sign. 1971, she makes a movie called Dollar Sign.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_05] Known as Dollars. Warren Beatty and Goldie Hawn in Dollars. It's a, that's a, that's a bank robbery movie where she plays a lady of the night.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_06] Butterflies Are Free. Yeah.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05] And then this. Butterflies Are Free was a big drama that won an Oscar itself. But not for Goldie Hawn.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_06] But like she was undeniably a movie star. And yeah, it does feel like in that first couple of years, she hasn't quite figured out how she works as a leading lady yet.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_05] Uh huh. Definitely hasn't. And I think it takes her another five years.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02] Until Private Benjamin.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_05] I think basically until Private Benjamin. Like, that'll play was, that'll play was a hit, right? That'll play's big. Yeah. So that, you know, with, with Chevy. I think that starts the transition. Obviously Shampooshy's amazing in it, but that's about, that movie's about this guy. He's like hot or something. She made a movie called Lovers and Liars. That's an Italian movie. So, yeah. And then I feel like Private Benjamin and then she has her whole 80s is like a pretty reliable sort of comedy star.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_06] She's figured out her movie star thing. Yeah. Right. Whereas in the 70s, she's still like, I mean, it's what's fascinating about this is this is kind of an odd choice for her. Like, it's not an obvious movie star.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_05] She's well cast though. She's great in it. Yeah. She's, would we all agree that Goldie Hawn good in the Sugar Land Express? Yeah.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, it's so funny actually just sort of like looking at her, you know, filmography. It's so, she hasn't made like all that many movies.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_05] She's a weird movie star because she is an icon. Yeah. I would say a four decade icon. 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. She is at the top of the heap of the type of like star she is, right?

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_06] Like, it's sort of the point I'm trying to make is like she immediately becomes an icon the second she appears on screen and laughing. Huge icon. Here's this woman with blonde hair and huge eyes and she's got the flowers.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02] And the huge mouth.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_06] Right. The flowers painted on her body.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02] Crazy mouth.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_06] And she says sock it to me or whatever. And people immediately are like, this means something. The mailbox was Haldeman.

[00:08:34] The mailbox was Haldeman.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_06] No, but like people looked at her like she was the fucking... I think about the mailbox was Haldeman all the time. She's like a pile of mashed potatoes in Close Encounters and went like this means something. This is culturally important. Right. And then she within a year like goes to movies, wins an Oscar and they're like, you are legitimate. You're no longer just like pop iconography. We are taking you seriously. And so like throughout the 70s, she's just undeniably culturally humongous before figuring out what her thing is.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_06] And then she has a run that's like big in the 80s. She slows down in the 90s. She's made three movies in the last 25 years.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_05] She has. So like, but even in the 90s, Goldie Hong, we're just starting off with Goldie Hong before we introduce the podcast, which is fine. It's fine. It's good. Have we ever covered Goldie Hong?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_06] This is a great question. One time for the movie. Swingshift. Swingshift. Right.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_05] I was the one time we covered her.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_06] Which is a very complicated film in her career.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_05] Yes, it is. But like in the 90s, I would say the only hits she made were-

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02] Death. Death.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_05] Excuse me. In order. I'm sorry. House Sitter. Uh huh. Which is both a huge hit and like kind of a well remembered like cable movie. Death Becomes Her, which is like a big hit and well received. Yeah. And then, right, her 90s apex is First Wives Club, which people forget made tons of money. But I feel like it's also like when you think of 90s Han, she looks like that. Yes. Right? Like the same with 90s Midler. And honestly, 90s Keaton. Yeah. Like their looks are that.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_06] But those are three big- Oh, well, when I said she's only made three movies in the last 25 years, I forgot that she did fucking two Christmas Chronicles movies.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_05] She is Mrs. Claus in the Christmas Chronicles one and two.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_06] Right. Because I was thinking Town and Country long delayed in 01, Banger Sisters 02, and then she doesn't do a movie until SNAP.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_05] And when we cover Chris Columbus on this podcast, we will do the Christmas Chronicles two, but not one because he didn't direct the first one.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_06] But you're saying she, those were her only three really big hits.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_05] In the 90s. In the 90s, she, in Bird on a Wire, like is kind of a flop. Deceived is like forgotten. Yeah. Criss Cross is basically forgotten. Completely forgotten. Right. Everyone says I love you. It's an ensemble thing and out of towners. It's kind of- Out of towners, Town and Country, Banger Sisters. It's kind of like, you know what? Yeah. I don't, I mean, I think she decides she's done. Yes. But like, it's like, you know what? The Goldie Hawn business is not a Hollywood business anymore, really.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_06] But here's another thing. Like the three big hits you said in the 90s, those are big Hollywood movies. Yeah. Where the other thing was like, she was someone where you could just sell it on. It's Goldie Hawn plus, like the pairing of Goldie and someone would excite someone. You know, Bird on a Wire is like, Mel and Goldie is like the whole selling thing. Yeah, definitely. She did two movies with Steve Martin. You know, she like, did like four movies with Warren Beatty. Like it was a lot of like- Goldie! Goldie plus someone equals excitement.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_05] God bless her having the name Goldie. She really lucked out. It's her birth name. It's a cool name.

[00:11:37] It's a cool name.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_05] Goldie! Is Hawn her real last name? Yeah, Goldie Jean Hawn. I mean, she nailed it. She did nail it. Her parents, of course, Laura and Edward nailed it, I would say. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02] Half Jewish.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_05] Is that right?

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02] Goldie Hawn's half Jewish. Somebody is half two. The Paul Newman's half two. Put them together. That's one fine looking two.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, her mother was Jewish. Her mother was Jewish.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you, Griffin.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_05] Of course. The mailbox is Haldeman. I got you with the mailbox is Haldeman though. It's not your fault.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02] Well, okay. I had to... I will say that I do love the 30 Rock laugh and parody. And the other one is like the fake Goldie's like, you're pardoned.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_06] Right. Esther, it's not your fault. And I'm not accusing you of mumbling or not pronouncing properly. But when you said half Jewish, this is just the culture, poison culture we live in. I heard it as hawk two-ish. And I was like, are you accusing Goldie Hawn of being hawk two-ish?

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02] I think you should cut that out.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_06] Should Goldie Hawn go on hawk two-ish?

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02] I hate that. Talk to her. Sorry. Talk to her. Talk to her. Also, sorry. It's twa.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_05] What? What? It's not talk to her. It's talk to her.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, because she's...

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_05] Please, please finish the sentence.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02] Because it's like, twa. She's sitting on the dick.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_06] I understand what she was saying on the street. The whole empire built on the fact that she said it a weird way, that she didn't say it the way that makes sense. Spit on that thing.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's twa.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_05] As someone who saw that TikTok, like naturally, and had the same reaction that apparently millions of Americans did where I was like, that girl's a firecracker. I love her. And so now we've crowned her queen of media. She definitely said twa. She said twa.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, then I'm wrong. I thought it was twa.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_05] No, hawk two-a. Twa would be if you were playing it real. If you were doing a realistic performance. The whole reason hawk two-a was funny is not because she says hawk two-a spin on that thing. That is funny. It's that she then lets out this kind of genuine laugh because she knows she said something silly. Yeah. And you're like, ah, she's not so bad. She should like throw out the first pitch in a Mets game. Maybe she should have a podcast. And then by 2025, I'm like, she's secretary of the interior. Are we sure? We're lucky she only messed it up to secretary of interior.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_06] No, but I look for our younger listeners. I'm sorry. And I say this as if the three of us fucking lived through Goldie Hawn's emergence. We did. But I do feel like Goldie Hawn appearing on laughing was similar to the hawk to a girl. Don't think that's true. I'm just immediately thrown out of a cannon. Griffin. Fuck you. I'm not comparing the work. I'm comparing the cultural impact. I think.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_05] I'm just pro-hawk two. People said what a firecracker. I mean, she's great unless she's done something bad by the time this episode comes out, which is eminently possible. She is endorsed like Victor Orban at this point. Again, I have no idea what she does on that show. I just I'm like, you never know with hawk to a has anyone listened to the podcast. I've seen clips from it on tick tock, but they tend to be 30 seconds long. Sure.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_03] I've heard that she brings on occasionally like hometown friends. I think that's fine. More than occasionally.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_05] That sounds great.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06] Grandma's the co-host.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_05] Wait, wait. I know that. That sounds good. Like her talking to other influencers. That sounds boring. Her just kind of being like, this is my vibe. Sure. What it is. Right. Yeah. Great.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_06] None of us know what the third most popular podcast in the world is.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. But what I heard is that her friends were people who clearly had never, ever spoken into a microphone Sure. Before in their entire lives. Right. And weren't the best at being able to have an engaging conversation.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. We can't all be fucking hot to her.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_06] Like your hands on my mic.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_03] They spit on that thing.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_06] They don't know what to do with it. They've never been on mic before. They spit on that thing. This is Blank Shack with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography and not about the Hawk to a Girl.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_05] Look, this episode's been two months. It's not so dated. Except she's kind of, she's been a thing for a long time. So, yeah.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_06] I was going to say, this is what I like about talking about the Hawk to a Girl in episodes we've recorded far in advance. We can't imagine how much bigger she'll be by the time this comes out. It's not like she'll become Hesse. It's prescient. Right.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_05] She's the star of Anyone But You 2 by this point. Anyone but Tua. Anyone. Some Sony executives arm hair just stood straight hearing that.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_06] Tom Rothman just ejaculated. Anyone but Tua.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_05] It's like, yeah, that's, give that a green light at $82 million.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_06] Look, this is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. We're talking about the most successful filmmaker in history. Period. Right? I do think it's still basically uncontested.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Of course. Is there any dispute of that? No, of course not. He's certainly earned the most money. Yes. Well, does James Cameron have him beat money wise? My guess is no though, because Spielberg just has so many, you know, more movies.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_06] Spielberg's more, uh, uh, more of a mogul too. Well then, and there's that too. Cameron, I feel like makes most of his money from his good deals, making the most successful movies in history. Spielberg also has his finger and his fingers in many other pots. He's getting that fucking Universal Studios ticket cut. Sure. Yeah. I'm looking it up.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02] Isn't James Cameron getting Disney?

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_06] James, I will probably repeat this 8,000 times across this series. When Universal decided to, uh, start a theme park, expand past just the Backlot Tour, the big coup was we get Spielberg to sign on as our like chief creative.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, so he gets like, just actual-

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_06] I believe he gets 20%. As a director- All of ticket sales across all parks in perpetuity. As a director, just-

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_05] Yep. Spielberg has Cameron beat by $2 billion. Oh, that's a lot of money. And again, look, he's got- He's made three- Many more movies. Right. But yeah, he's got him beat.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. Uh, we're talking about the first half of Steven Spielberg's career in a series we're calling Podrassic Cast. And today we are talking about his first- What? Sorry. Podrassic Cast. Spit on that thing. That's gonna sound better the more you say it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_06] We should get Hayley Welch to say it. She'd probably know how to make it sound good.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02] Podrassic Cast. Yes.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, I'm laughing already. I love it. Today we're talking about Steven Spielberg's first intentional feature film. Theatrical film. Yes. Yes.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_05] He still calls it his first movie. He calls this his first movie and that makes sense because it's the first thing he made that was released in theaters.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_06] Right. Where someone said, we are giving you money to make a movie. Here you go. It's called the Sugar Land Express. And our guest today, joining us, Blank Check's own little firecracker. Esther Zuckerman.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02] I wear that badge proudly. Blank Check's little firecracker.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_06] Esther, you write about Goldie Hawn in your book?

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know, it's-

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_06] You have a new book coming out.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02] I have a new book coming out. It will be out by the time this episode is, it like, is airs. Airs is the right word. Drops. Drops. Yes. It is about rom-coms. I write, yes, I write about Cactus Flower a little bit. You know, it's funny. I write also about Goldie in the context of her daughter, Kate Hudson. Who? You never heard of her. Actually, you know, it's something really fun. It's not really funny. Whatever.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02] I was at brunch the other day at like a local restaurant and there was a girl trying to explain to her boyfriend like, Goldie Hawn, she's Kate Hudson's mother. And he was like, I don't know who those people are and I don't care.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_06] Either one.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02] I, I, I'm not sure. He just seemed so like, stop talking to me. Wild. Yeah. And I'm not sure what brought it up though. I think it might've been the fact that all of the, the Hawn Hudson family is doing a Skims holiday ad campaign. Though not Kurt and not Wyatt. Oh, you're kidding.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_05] They didn't want to jump in on that one.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02] But, uh, doesn't Oliver have, Oliver is in it.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_06] The most popular podcast in the world. Who?

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02] Oliver Hudson. Of course. What the fuck is that? Kate's brother.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_06] Never heard of this motherfucker. He has a podcast called like, I'm a brother or something. Shut the fuck up. And they've tried to deal with the U.S. government for five trillion dollars. I swear to you.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_05] The agency of global commerce has signed into broadcast this in people's brains. I have a promo.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_05] You have self promo. What's the title of the book?

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02] Falling in love at the movies. Falling in love at the movies. Um, and, uh, uh, rom coms from the screwball era to today. And it's with TCM. And I talk about, you know, the, I talk about the female rom com star and sort of talk about, you know, Kate's run of, you know, being a major rom com star and how like, and the descendant of the movies.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02] Um, and Goldie as sort of the, the sort of forbear of that in, especially with cactus flower and winning

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_06] the Oscar. There is an argument for, and I, I wonder if this is the argument you're making that Kate was sort of the last person who got to pursue a conventional rom com movie star career at a high level.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, that's not, I don't really go.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_06] She's in that last generation with Heigl.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I don't really go chronologically. Heigl's truly the last.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_06] Heigl's the end of it. But yes.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02] I don't really go chronologically. Okay. So like, I sort of talk about, you know, when I talk about the female stars of the rom com, I sort of divide it into two major types, which is the Spitfire and the relatable queen in the sense that like.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_05] What is Kate Hudson?

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02] She's the Spitfire.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_05] She's definitely not a relatable queen. That's what I was about to say. Maybe we're, we're maybe noticing what Kate Hudson's issue was is she's a pretty poor Spitfire.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02] I talk about Goldie. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, it's funny looking at her. She doesn't have that many straight rom coms, which is sort of interesting in the context of, you know, obviously overboard as a classic one. A cactus flower is one.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_05] But she did a lot of like capers. She did a lot of capers.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02] Like private Benjamin really isn't like stuff like that. Isn't a rom com.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_06] No, but also she, so many of her movies were sold on. It's Goldie plus X, right? Like it was like two big movie stars. She does. Two movies with Chevy Chase. She does best friends with Burt Reynolds, right? She does like two movies with Kurt. Bird on a wire is Mel and Goldie. First names only. She has two Steve Martin movies like that was kind of the formula. But those movies, even when there is a central romance, I would not classify as rom

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02] a capers. Right.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_06] House sitter is not a rom com. Yeah.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02] So, yeah. So I do, you know, as a nice way to sort of like funge our way into promoing my book for this for this podcast. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. I do talk about Goldie and I do talk about cactus flower in a chapter about the man in crisis rom com. Well, yeah, it's sort of all about a chapter about all the rom coms that are basically

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02] about, you know, it's such a female coded genre. But so many of these rom coms are about men having deep problems.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. But also, admittedly, not having seen it, cactus flower feels like one of those like pictures of the revolution turning point movies. Yeah. Where you're like, Matthau is like an old guard movie star. And here's a movie about him trying to reckon with a flower child. Yeah. Right. It is that it's launching its own star. I know it has other things going on, but like, isn't that part of the alchemy that? Yeah. Goldie was kind of the first off the conveyor belt of like this is a new movie star who represents

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_06] the type of woman that has not really existed in the media up until this moment.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02] Which also sort of makes, you know, Sugar Land Express so interesting in her career. Yes. Because. I don't know, it feels so it does. It feels so sort of outside of what she's known for doing.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_06] Well, because I feel like the even when she's in kind of like I'm falling apart Liberty gibbet mode. Right. There's a sense of like Goldie having some sense of self. Right. There are things like shampoo or like, you know, if she's a character in crisis because she can't fully hold the guy down. But there's still this sense of like she's she's she's a spark plug. She's a firecracker. Right.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_06] There's like a spirit within her. You can't dampen. And that's certainly part of the equation of Sugar Land Express. But the other part of it is like, what the fuck is going on in this woman's head? Right. Like so much of this movie is everyone just being and I guess this is what those poster taglines are trying and failing to capture is like this whole movie hinges on what is she thinking? Even just from the initial setup of like, why the fuck are you going to try to break out of prison when you're four months away from being released?

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_06] And Atherton's like, I just don't. How do you deal with her?

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_05] And because it's Goldie, it makes sense. And it wouldn't make sense with everybody. But that is Goldie's magic, I would say. She makes movie kind of logic make sense because she's such a big personality. And to the extent that later in her career or even in this movie, a movie like House basically like what if you met a Goldie Hawn type? Like can be basically kind of the premise of your movie of like, oh, she's crazy, like

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_05] in fun, but insane. But like a lot. But like, you know, bewitching, you know, it's like it's just like, yeah, you Goldie Hawn's in your life. Is this the only movie that like makes her dangerous? I don't know. Private Benjamin, she was in the army, the US Army. Well, but she's very responsible. She is. Oh, nothing goes wrong. She gets there.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02] She gets there. Yeah, she's a Jewish American princess in that movie.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_05] I know. That's a good movie.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_05] Wildcats. Is she dangerous in that one running a football team? I've got some dangerous plays. Banger sisters. Did they make like explosives? Yeah. That way they're called that? Never seen. I gotta say never seen the banger sisters. That's a classic movie that came out when I was a teenager. I was like, none of this. No part of this is for me.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_06] I think I remember getting the completely expected perfunctory best actresses. In a musical or comedy nomination for Goldie at the Golden Globes. And when they cut her in the audience, you could see on her face. She was like, maybe I'm retiring. Maybe this is my last movie. Unless Amy Schumer makes a movie, I'm out.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_05] For 15 years. Is she good in Snatched? Yeah, I liked Snatched quite a bit.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02] I actually liked that movie. I liked that movie. I was sort of well-received. And I always forgot about that movie. Yeah.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_05] It wasn't well-received, but like quickly got a little, there was a bit of a whispering of like, I know we're all over Amy Schumer, but Snatched ain't bad.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01] That was my take. Yeah.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_06] Snatched looked he good. And felt like one of those things of like, oh, here's one of the few, like major kind of eternal movie stars, where her coming out of retirement is going to be a big deal. And it wasn't.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. Where it's like, we got Goldie and audiences are like, who? Yeah. Even compared to like 10 years before that, when Jane Fonda does Monster in Law, it did feel like the press was like,

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, that was huge.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_06] This is important. Yeah.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_05] She's been retired for 15 years. Yeah. Shackled to Ted Turner's bed. And now she's free to be in this like, you know, five out of 10 movie. Right. But made a ton of money. Did. Yeah. People saw it. People showed up. Yeah. I mean, Snatch made some money. Snatch did not do very well. How did Snatch do? You know what I think a big problem with it was?

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, I made 45 million worldwide. It has a terrible title. Worldwide domestic. No? Okay. That's not terrible. I thought it was even, I thought it was closer to 30. I feel like it had a better title throughout development. And then they changed it to Snatched at the last minute. And it was like, this, this was a mistake. Yeah. That's if you change the title.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_05] Okay. But so what was the original title?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02] It had the working. No, it had a bad title. Mother daughter.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_05] It's terrible. That's better than Snatch.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's still bad though.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. It got its ass kicked by King Arthur Legend of the Sword. Oh no, it didn't actually. It should be King Arthur Legend of the Sword.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_06] That's embarrassing for King Arthur. Look, I want to, I want to be on topic here. Let me just say that.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_05] The Sugarland Express.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_06] It is wild for, you know, this is a movie where Goldie is minted as a star, but has not quite figured out her thing yet. Spielberg is getting his first real shot at making a movie. Then both of them go on to have wild success over the next couple of decades. They never work together again in any capacity. No. I wondered about this. Yeah. Why did they never work together? I've sensed no ill will. He speaks very highly of her. You have to imagine they're constantly like overlapping. At the same parties. Right.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_06] And it's just funny that they never did anything together ever again. And it's almost as funny as when you remind people that Steven Spielberg's first movie was a William Atherton co-hander. Yeah. A two-hander. Like it just doesn't feel like, wait, Dickless from Ghostbusters at one point was Steven Spielberg's leading man. Atherton also never, never worked with Spielberg again.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02] You would think he'd pop up and like some FBI guy.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_06] I will say respectfully, I feel like Atherton has a reputation for being very difficult. Interesting. And I feel like who knows if JJ gets into this in the dossier. Yeah, we'll see. But I think there was a bit of a narrative that he kind of blew his leading man shot after this movie. And then when he comes back in the eighties as like Dickless stiff ass, that was sort of a. Okay.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_05] That's your lane. Yeah.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_06] He came back a little humbled.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02] Not to jump ahead, but did you guys look up the guy who plays slide and what his deal is?

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_05] Wait, what's the. Can we just. You mean Michael Sacks? Yeah. Because he's in Slaughterhouse Five. Yep. Which I've seen. Which I've seen. Is it good? Michael Sacks. Well, I don't know.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02] He worked at Morgan Stanley for 10 years. Okay. He's just like. Oh, he just became a rich guy. He just became a rich guy.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, interesting.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_06] Michael Sacks did nine movies in total. Right. Two of them TV movies. Slaughterhouse Five, Sugar Land Express, The Private Falls of J. Edgar Hoover, Hanover Street, Amityville Horror, Split Image. His final film in 1984 is The House of God.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_05] It's kind of crazy that he was the star of Slaughterhouse Five, which is not. People don't remember that movie now, but it was a big movie, George Roy Hill movie. And he was the out of nowhere Billy Pilgrim. And then right. He does this. He's pretty good in this. He's got the right look. And yeah, like by the 80s, he's done. And I guess he retired before. Yeah.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_06] He's like doing movies with like Harrison Ford. He's doing Amityville Horror. Like he's in big shit. And then I'll just read this paragraph. After spending time working in technology positions on Wall Street in 2004, Saks joined the online bond trading company Market Access, A-X-E-S-S, as head of global applications development. He was employed by Morgan Stanley from 1994 to 2004 as executive director, global head of bond technology for the fixed income division.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_06] Griffin, this is not interesting.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_05] This is fascinating. I mean, reading it all out. I mean, I mean, it's interesting that he just pivoted to being a rich guy. But it's just how like all of these fucking positions for. Yeah, he's fancy 40 years now.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_06] And he's still alive.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you can look at him. I just Ben Johnson. No, I just looked at it on. What a loser.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_05] What's he thinking? Ben Johnson lived a lot longer than I thought.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02] Should I connect with Michael Sachs on LinkedIn?

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_05] Yes, you should. The thing with Ben Johnson is you're like, oh, he lived like another 20 years after Sugarland Express. So he must have died at the age of 100. No, he died at 77. He's only in his 50s in this movie. He reads like so much older. And of course, he won the Oscar a few years prior to this. And it was this Oscar that was kind of like, ah, the old lion of the Western, like this old vet. And it's like he was like probably 48. And they're like, ah, you're sending out to pasture.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02] Ben, you know, like Rick Dalton.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_05] The reason it felt that way is a lot of these guys died at 52.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I think he was he probably was in his 50s.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_05] Yes.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_06] But still, like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Even like, you know, Robert Shaw, who we'll cover next week, was dead within three years of Jaws. A lot of these guys died very young and died very young, basically of old age, where

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_05] people just lived so fucking hard. They kind of read. They just accelerated down the old age road.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_06] It was like, yes. Right. Ben Johnson lives until the 2000s as making movies until the end. I was like, right. He's in Angels in the Outfield.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_05] He lived until 96. 96. I'm sorry. Yes. No, 96. I'm sorry. He was in a car attack visiting his still living mother at a suburban Phoenix retirement community where they both lived. So I guess he was like going to the building across the street or whatever. And she lived another four years and died at the age of 101. That's insane. Mazel tov. It's kind of insane.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_05] And there's a sculpture of Ben Johnson in Pahuska, Oklahoma, that you can go see.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02] Pahuska. That's where they filmed Killers of Claremont.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_05] That's, well, then we should go see the statue and then the location of that film. Pahuska live show? They have a venue. Do you think like a, what's a comedy lounge? What's like a, what's a chain? What are they?

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_08] Exactly.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_05] Bananas with a Z.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_06] David Crack opened the dossier. Because there is more of a gap between Duel and this than I remembered. Duel. Have you seen Duel, Esther Zuckerman?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02] I have never seen Duel all the way through. I've seen clips of Duel.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_05] Uh, it rules. Uh, Duel does rule. Check it out. Duel rule. Duel rules. We have to stop. Steven Spielberg makes Duel. Yeah. It's, it's kind of hot stuff. And everyone's like, okay. At least in the industry. Not in the industry. That's what I'm saying. Like, but there's buzz. Everyone's like, okay, what's Steven going to do? And Steven says, Steven Spielberg says he was offered a bunch of movies right out of Duel, but they were kind of bad. Right? Like, suddenly it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_05] Get that guy. But I think he's probably being sent whatever warmed over projects are kind of sitting around. Right. So, uh, instead he does two more TV movies, which I think we're planning on discussing on our Patreon. Yes. Uh, something evil and savage. Yeah. And, uh, you know, he basically, uh, so something evil was for CBS. Universal let him out of his contract to do it. Cause they had nothing for him to do.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_05] And then savage, which has Martin Landau, uh, was a true, like, he says the only real time that universal was like, you have to do this. Literally. You owe us something. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, have not seen savage. Have you seen savage? No, we will watch it. I'm excited to see Landau mugging it up in that one. And then he's thinking of making a movie called McCluskey based on a sort of based on something that Greedo once said to Han.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, fuck you.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_06] It's based on that in the same way that Sugar Land Express is based on true story. It takes some liberties. It changes some of the words.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00] Um, clunky. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I know.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_06] It's sort of based on inspired spirit.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Okay.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_06] Um, cause that is the real thing that Greedo said a long time ago. Still. It's so funny in the world.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_04] Weird that he just says, we're conkey. Yeah.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_06] Connor Raleigh. When we do George Lucas talk show, anytime he refers to the McClunky cut or he tries to like sort of pathologize the thought behind the McClunky change at the last minute, it feels like the kind of thing Connor would make up. And it's so weird that it's just really the last thing that George Lucas did before selling the company. One little like perfect. I have one final change. And then I'm ready to let go of Star Wars forever. And his final statement was McClunky.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_05] Anyway, Spielberg wanted to make McCluskey. McCluskey, a Burt Reynolds vehicle, which is later made by Joseph Sargent and is given the slightly better title of White Lightning, which is, you know, a good title. Uh, Spielberg truly works like comes aboard that project, but decides not to do it because he's working on it for like two months, scouts some locations and starting to casting. And he's basically like, this is like a journeyman movie that like is a Burt Reynolds vehicle. Why am I doing this? Yeah.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_05] And so he backs out and decides like, I need to do something a little more personal, which is why I'm sort of like, how'd you get to Sugar Land Express? But we'll get to that. Yes. Major pin in that. Cause I got some, some thoughts. Um, he also briefly was flirting with California split. Interesting. And cruisin'. Okay. I'm assuming that's not the freaking moving, not the freaking moving. Cruisin' with a apostrophe.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01] Can you imagine Steven Spielberg directing Cruisin'?

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_05] Steven Spielberg's cruising, like they go into the gay bar and the camera just doesn't go in.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_06] It's just like, let's leave. I was gonna say, it's the most explicit handshaking movie you've ever seen. Hello, nice to meet you. Just leather daddies tipping their calves. Good afternoon. And she was like, this is sick. Unbelievable. The violin underbelly. Uh, is Cruisin' with an apostrophe the movie that ends up being the, the Curtis Hanson, Tom Cruise, Jackie O'Haley movie or a third entirely different movie? That's losing it. Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_05] I don't know what Cruisin' is, but, uh, JJ has highlighted it. Now Spielberg had been thinking about the Sugar Land Express since in 1969. He had read a news story about this true story. He'd pitched it to Universal back then, you know, about this Texas couple that, you know, took a highwayman hostage. Universal's like, eh, this seems like a bummer. No. Um, but now he's got a little juice. Okay. So he's trying to revive it. Uh, he takes it over to Jennings Lang. Okay.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_05] Who pairs him with these screenwriters, Hal Barward and Matthew Robbins, who have a credit on the movie, right? Along with Spielberg.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. And Robbins becomes a major collaborator. I mean, he's in the Spielberg Amblin ecosystem. He's working with, uh, Lucas a lot over the next couple of decades. He's a major recurring figure.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_05] He wrote, uh, even recently he wrote the screen story for Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio. Yeah. He wrote batteries not included. Right. Which, yeah. Anyway. So, uh, they, uh, have a title. Carte Blanche. Oh, interesting. French for blank check. He knew. They wrote a script in like 13 days and a universal thinks about it, but puts in a turnaround, but then they revive it. And for whatever reason, you know, Hollywood is a crazy business, I guess.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_05] They respect Steven enough to be like, okay, let's fucking do it. Do you have any sources on that? Any sites? Hollywood. Hollywood's just a crazy old town. Yeah. It's hard for me to believe that. Uh huh. Spielberg says he likes the kind of media circus part of it, right? It's not just that he's interested in this couple. He likes the sort of American condition of today, you know, sort of statement you can make about it. Like he's related to Ace in the Hole, the great Billy Wilder movie, right? About, it's not just about the event.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_05] It's about the thing that unfolds around the event.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_06] Which, you know, does start to become a major theme in American movies across this decade. Like Dog Day Afternoon is sort of the apex of this. A better film than The Sugar Land Express. I agree. But the modern relationship to crime and news and right.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_05] The first wave of, I mean, Ace in the Hole is actually more of the first. Yeah. But yeah, but like television and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Sugar Land Express becomes the title. I don't know. Uh, Universe. It is a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_06] No, but it's kind of like the- It's a catchy title. It's the, the Peter Bogdanovich Paper Moon story. Where he's just like, that just sounds good. It does sound good. And he reaches out to Orson Walls and he's like, what do you think of Paper Moon? He's like, the title's so good you don't even need to make the picture. Like, Sugar Land Express doesn't tell you anything about the movie, but it is just kind of a fun set of words.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_05] Universal is basically like, we will do this, but you need a star. And so that's how Goldie Hawn comes aboard. He has two recent Academy Award winners in this movie.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_06] Who's the other? Ben Johnson. Oh, Ben Johnson, you're right, of course. Had just 1971, right?

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Spielberg has acknowledged later on that casting Goldie Hawn was risky because you do kind of expect a Goldie Hawn picture and this isn't that, right? But also- The ending of this movie is sad, like this is a downbeat, you know, experience. It's not a Goldie Hawn picture in that way. To our point, she has not quite-

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_06] figured out what a Goldie Hawn picture is yet. So, like, you're playing with sort of like, weird elements.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02] But I do think that the Goldie Hawn, like, idea is still the girl from Laugh-In.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_06] Absolutely.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_02] She's just- She's gonna be wearing a little mini skirt and doing a little dance.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_06] This is what's interesting about it. And, you know, you can listen to our Swing Shift episode. Come on, Liz, it's the 90s!

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_05] That is maybe the greatest live delivery in that episode. That episode is incredible. It is incredible.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02] It's the perfect episode.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_05] It is my favorite episode of 30 Rock, probably.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02] Never follow a hippie to a second location.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_05] Never follow a hippie to a second location. It's just unbelievable. To me, that's the epitome of what I think 30 Rock is about, especially in the early seasons, which is about, Liz, the allure of Jack Donaghy to Liz, right? Of like, no, I don't want to be like you. But also, this era of politics and thought kind of is like, eh, I have to stop worrying about being radical and just make money. Like, and Jack Donaghy is the devil on her shoulder being like, yes, big office, be mean. It's the heart of the show. It's the heart of the show.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_06] Which is Tina Fey's relationship to Lorne Michaels. 100%.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_05] Her like alternating confusion, revulsion, admiration. Attraction. Attraction, right. Like, not romantic attraction, but like, you know, just like to that lifestyle. And like the most good 30 Rock episodes end with her going to his office and him being like, well, Lemon. And she's like, yeah, I don't. And he's like, mm-hmm.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_06] And you're like, this rocks. This is the best. My favorite running thing on 30 Rock is when they get angry by people suggesting there's maybe sexual chemistry between you. Right. Like, never. Right.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_05] The show is like, fuck you. That's also the episode where Jack Donaghy says, ship a robe. Oh, okay. When he does the entire group therapy with Tracy Morgan playing like 16 characters. Right. Yes.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_06] But that's not the Lemon, it's 5 PM, what am I a farmer? No, that's in season one. That's early.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02] That's that episode. That is in...

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_05] Is that Black Tie?

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02] No, that's in Tracy Does Conan.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_05] Right. That's really early. That episode's good too.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_06] I rewatched it like two years ago. Now I want to just watch it all again.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_05] It's solid gold.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_06] Here's what I was going to say. Ten years later, she does Swing Shift. We covered Sling Shift many years ago on the podcast, right? Swing Shift is a movie where this calamitous production, birth, post-production battle, that's basically because Goldie won't let go of what a Goldie Hawn movie is in her head. That she could not accept a movie being a piece of a Jonathan Demme movie and was like, my persona is this. Kurt and I have this chemistry, this and that, right?

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_06] It's interesting that Goldie Hawn represented a very clear thing at this point, but hadn't figured out how to successfully build a movie around it. So she seems more open to just being an instrument for Spielberg.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_05] She's a very good one, but an expensive one, Griffin. She had a deal with Universal so they could get her, but she costs 300 grand. The movie's budget is about $2 million. Okay. So she's a big ticket. A fourth of the budget. And, but she says, recently she said this. I guess plus the one-fifth of the budget. Whatever, but she says it was the most beautiful time. I love Spielberg. I was amazed that this young man I worked with so many years ago went on to make all these movies. I love you, Steven. That's her take.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_05] William Atherton, Spielberg says, and I do like this take from him. He says, very soft-spoken, but with wild eyes. You could easily misunderstand him like looking through a pair of binoculars.

[00:44:08] Interesting.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_05] You know what I mean? It's like I wanted to cast someone who maybe looked crazy, but not in like an obvious way. Atherton. Yeah. And then he says he cast Michael Sachs because he looked like Atherton and he wanted them to resemble each other. Like he wanted them to be two sides of the coin. Yeah. Like kind of straight-laced and crazy. It is funny that Atherton-

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_06] But it can be distracting sometimes because they kind of look alike. Yeah, they do look really alike. Yes. It's just funny that Atherton's thing at this time is, is this guy insane? And then it just within a decade becomes-

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_05] Like this fucking suit is here to ruin your party.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_06] Right. The second he walks on screen, you're like, get him out of here. Buzzkill.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_05] Spielberg says, Han is wonderful on take one and two. He gets her second win on take seven and is marvelous again on take 12 or 13. On the other hand, Atherton is this New York actor who's very serious and demanding and he gets better with takes. Uh-huh. And then I thought Goldie would be wearing thin as Bill was getting better. I love to hear directors talk like that. I love it. Because then you really are like, yeah, they know. Like they think about this stuff and they won't talk about it too much because it's a little impolite. Also, look, this is Spielberg- But now it's like 50 years from now Spielberg can talk about this.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_06] This is his first proper movie. He's directed less than 10 professional things at this point, right? In total. And for him to already have a sense of like, you know, when people talk about, you know, an actor's director, director who's good with actors, what that really means is someone who is intuitive and empathetic and observant and understands how to deal with different people differently. Right. Because there is no one size fits all thing. Right.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_06] And like you do have actors who have different processes, different like arcs of when they're going to have the most juice and shit like that. And for Spielberg to already at this age be able to clock that and be able to manage that and figure out how to like create a flow around that. It's like the Spielberg blocking shit, right? I not to get ahead of conversation here, but it's like, you know, you look at this movie and it already has the crazy Spielberg winners that are totally on showy.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_06] You don't notice until like two minutes in like, wait, there hasn't been a cut. And it's always it feels like for the sake of how would I put it? It's a story economy, right? Like he's trying to simplify things. And I'm sure also simplifying his shoot day by figuring out how to get thing in one extended shot. And the blocking is so precise. But you compare it to someone like Hitchcock who would do similar things, but was so contemptuous of his actors and talked about them like paper dolls and puppets. Right.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_06] And he would like hire a movie star and just be like, do your fucking movie star thing and then hire a woman and yell at her, you know? And like Spielberg is someone who is like collaborative with actors. You really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are and like synthesize different sort of acting styles, performance styles, tones and whatever. But in an era where a lot of other filmmakers are going like I let the actors do whatever they want. They're free. There's no blocking. The camera's loose. We're shooting it almost verite style.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_06] Like that's the style that's on the rise because this kind of traditional blocking framing sort of like intentionality of shot structure is starting to seem a little rigid and classical and passe. And he's like this one guy who's able to marry the two things like the modern style of performance and like treating actors as collaborators, but also have these sort of very intentional man. The actors keep on landing in just the right spot at just the right time.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, absolutely. It's just wild to me. They shot it for 60 days on location in Texas shot in continuity to keep costs down makes sense because all the cars you need at the end of the movie Spielberg is basically never working with has never worked with a crew this big right?

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_05] So Saul sorry Zanuck the producer is like well, let's ease him in give him a sense of control and then gets to set on the first day and says he was about to get ready for his first shot. And it's the most elaborate fucking thing I've ever seen in my life all in one shots camera going and stopping people going in and out and he had such confidence in the way he was handling it. And I was kind of like, oh, I don't think I need to like, you know, warm this kid up like he'll be fine.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_05] Also this movie he's already working with Vilmos, John Williams and Verna Fields. Yes. And Vilmos Sigmund had just done McCabe and fucking long goodbye. Right. Like he, you know, it's not like he's some amateur they picked up off the heat. He's already like really hot stuff. Right.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_06] This, this Spielberg Altman overlap. I keep finding fascinating. Because Williams had done close. They were at this point in time for very different filmmakers.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. And Spielberg had loved McCabe, which is, he says, this is his favorite film that Zygmunt ever shot and images. And he loved deliverance and he loved the long goodbye. And he said, I'd heard about this crazy Hungarian who lights with six foot candles and would try anything. So I sent him the script and he loved it. And I said, I wanted to shoot this whole picture in the rain with windshield wipers going. And he was like, let's do it, bro. Um, they only shoot, they only work again on close encounters. Also a good looking movie though. I think a pretty terrific looking film.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_06] I think two of the three best looking things he ever shot. Yeah. Uh, along with the pilot for the Mindy project.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_05] That's his final credit. She's so funny. I can't do, I don't know what he sounds like. How can she balance her work with her? I think three of the guys here need to sort of be cycled out for other guy. Remember how many project would be like that guy's fired. Uh, this guy's in like over and over again. Two new guys. Maybe too much.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe too much. Ike Barinholtz.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_05] Lots of it. Oh, you want less? Okay. Okay. We can have less. We can have less. Yeah.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_06] I just believe that was straight up his last thing he ever shot. Wow.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Uh, Spielberg says he's an interesting man. You employ his great camera eye, but for gratis, you get his thoughts as well. He's opinionated and sometimes he'll conflict with your own ideas, but he's enough of a professional to do immediately any way you wish.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_06] But Spielberg likes that. Like for how much this guy has like a vision, he's not someone coming in being like, it's all in my head and all of you need to do what I'm telling you to do.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_05] They get along really well. It's almost weird that they didn't make more movies together because it does. They do talk about each other both so positively and Zygmunt's like he's the most talented filmmaker I ever worked with.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_06] And this movie looks incredible and has like a kind of surprising look like there is a kind of muted quality to it.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. It always feels like it's like sunset or like, you know, early morning. Right. Like, you know, the way the light is.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_06] The brightest daylight scenes are still something's a little like shadowy and sort of sad about them.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_05] It's using this new Panaflex camera. I think this was the first feature ever. Yes. And so it can do these big pans. I think like 360 degree pans. They can like move around the car really easily. And yeah, I mean, another person he collaborates with for the first time is John Williams.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_02] I worked with someone else on the square, right? The toots.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. Toots was the main harmonica player. What's his name? Let me pull it up. Who isn't toots?

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01] I just, I clock toots. Me? Tootsa? No, you're dumb.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_05] Okay. Well, 10 comedy points. Ben liked that or is mad at me. One or the other.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01] I'm mad at you.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_05] I looked up toots Sugarland and I got toots Thielmans, a Belgian jazz musician who is known for playing the chromatic harmonica. Also known for his whistling skills.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think, um, I don't think, I don't know if you'll listen, but.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, he's, he does the harmonica on Sesame Street.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02] Toots. Oh, wow. What a fucking legend.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_05] Holy shit.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_02] Um, I do think, I do think Jordan Hoffman probably is deeply aware of who toots is.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_05] Well, I'm not going to get Jordan Hoffman fucking started on that. I get 18 text messages about toots before breakfast. Jordan Hoffman has a whole shelf of toots 75s. Exactly. Uh, toots died in 2016 at the age of 94. He tooted his last toot. Um. Uh, so, uh, Spielberg had really liked, I think we mentioned this on last week's episode, uh, the Mark Rydale film, The Revivers, uh, which had a John Williams score.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_05] And he was always like, I want the guy who did the score to do my movie.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_06] Like 75 and says 78.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_05] It's gone. I know Ben was just really shooting some dirty glances at me. Yeah, it was also, but it's fine. William Goldenberg, who scored duel, thinks he might've been able to sneak in there and beat John Williams to the punch if he'd read the script faster. He, he, this, this may just be William Goldenberg sitting there full of regret being like, why didn't I turn out to be fucking Steven Spielberg's go to composer or whatever. But he's like, it's all to do with my procrastination.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_05] I was the first person he gave the script and I didn't reply and he probably thought I didn't like it. I don't know, man.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_06] The, um, I, I'm going to be citing the John Williams Disney plus doc a lot in these early episodes because we're pretty close together and I just watched it. But Spielberg says that he saw the Reavers, which is the, that's what I said.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_05] Right. I said revivers.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_06] It's the Reavers. There you go. The Mark Rydale movie. Right. And he said to himself, if I ever get to make a movie, I'm hanging out with this guy. Right. It was like locked in his mind. And then his career got bigger by the time he goes to him. Obviously he'd won the Fiddler Oscar. He wasn't John Williams legend status, but he was like, this guy might turn me down. Right. Um, but it seemed very locked in on the idea that this was the guy he wanted to work with. And I think had a notion.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_06] The thing he said was that at that point in time, the sort of big classical orchestral score was going out of fashion. And Spielberg wanted it. He wanted an Aaron Copeland 80 piece orchestra score. That when he hears the Reavers score and some of those other sixties Williams scores that he's like, this is the last guy keeping up this old school tradition. And I want to support him. And this is what I want my movies to sound like. And John Williams is like, no, no, like that's not, we're not doing that for this.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_05] We're going to do a small string ensemble and I'm getting toots. Yeah. I'm not joking. He's like, and harmonica.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_06] This score is incredible. It's great score. It basically was not really in circulation. It just got put out on CD in the year 2024 for the 50th anniversary. But outside of like times he's performed the main theme as part of like concerts, it's never been like, I think really.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_05] And that's when people like go get a hot dog. Right. If you're at the fucking Boston pops or whatever. But I think it's like quiet. No, I think it's a lovely score. I'm just saying if you're there to see John Williams, do all his shit. It's the one you don't recognize. He's like, and now the Sugar Land Express. And you're like, I'm going to make an express stop bathroom. It's a brown town express.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_04] It's it.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_06] I'm sorry. You set me up. This music's making me need to poop. He's playing the brown note. Toots knows the brown note.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I'm sorry. Going to the bathroom is a major plot point in this movie.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_05] It's true. Well, if it's something you always think about with car movies, where you're like, when's anyone peeing?

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01] And they make it very explicit that it's like she's going to need to go. But then she doesn't go.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_06] This is one of the only movies with like basically a porta potty heist. Yeah, we gotta go. I just think this score sounds like nothing else in the rest of John Williams entire career. Right. It's a total one of one. It is fascinating that this is what starts their relationship and that what starts their relationship is Spielberg being like, I want you to do the John Williams thing. And he immediately pushes back and is like, hear me out. Right. And Spielberg talks a lot about that. He would go to John Williams with ideas in the early years.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_06] And then John Williams would be like, what if I veer here? You think Joss is going to sound like this? I'm going to play two notes. Right. You want sweeping orchestra. I'm going to bring in toots, whatever it is. And Spielberg is like at this point. He has this line that's very touching in the doc where he's like, anytime I'm making a movie, the thing that keeps me going is like, oh, man, at some point at the other end of this. John's going to be like showing me the first thing. I get to hear John's first ideas. Right. And I have no idea what they're going to be. And I've never been disappointed by them.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_06] And there's some amount of conversation. But I love seeing his first instinct without me giving him any guidance and me not giving him temper or anything like that. And then in that same documentary, they cut to Lucas and he goes, you know, a lot of people, you work with them and they go, I have this idea. And you go, no, that's not what I want. And they push back and you get into a fight. And John's never fought me on anything. He's a real prince.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_06] And you're like, God, what an interesting comparison point for these two guys where Lucas is like, and first of all, I'm like, what other fucking composers were you working with? You've worked with so few other composers in your life. But he's like these uppity guys who are giving you ideas. Right. And Spielberg's like, I like the John Williams like zags and that our relationship was formed on him zagging right off the bat.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_05] I also just truly wonder how much. Yeah. Like George Lucas is informing the music of Star Wars, which is so clearly like John Williams is like ongoing opus. Right. That like every time there's a sequel, it's like, I actually have something new. Like, you know, every time.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah, there's a part where he's like, you know, some of the stuff John gave me, it wasn't right. And I had to explain to him how the mood was wrong. And they play the Luke to sunset. Sure. Moments with his original track.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_05] And toots is going crazy.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_06] They play it. And you're like, this doesn't work. And then they play the final version. And it's like a transcendent moment that like immediately solidifies that movie and like cultural history. And I'm like, I cannot imagine what the note George Lucas gave in between it. Like, obviously, they got to the right place. But knowing George Lucas.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_05] He just like mumbled something.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_04] Was he just like, oh, no, it's wrong. Louder. Yeah. French horn. Don't you dare disagree with me. Sebulba. Is Sebulba in this scene?

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_05] He's over there. You can't see him. What if George Lucas buys Star Wars back and then just puts Sebulba in like one scene of the original Star Wars and then sells it again? That's the biggest mistake Kathy Kennedy has made. Not like doing a Sebulba. Not going all in on Sebulba. I think it is a mistake how they did a bunch of Star Wars shows, but they never like had the guts to do like a pod racing show. Yeah. Where it's just like, that's so built for a show.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_05] Like the world of pod racing.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_06] Also, just synergy. Walt Disney Company, right? Their whole portfolio. Just start animating full pod races and airing them on ESPN. Don't make a show that's like a narrative. Just let me watch. Invent pod racing as a real sport. Right. Script it, rig it, animate it.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_05] Right. Like, you know, you're gonna have to rollerball it. It's gonna have to be in some. It's on the O show.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_05] Some country where, you know, you can do that. Like, you know, some regulations are maybe a little lighter. Get proof saying to record some new color commentary. Yeah, that's gotta hurt. I don't care what country, universe you're from. My dad's losing it. Okay. Back to the Sureland Express. Let's begin the plot.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_06] David. Yes. I just heard something mind blowing. What? My mind is blown. What's going on? Netflix. Have you heard of them? Yeah, of course. They have more than 18,000 titles globally. Oh, that's impressive. Oh my God. Wait, but what? Only 6,000 of those are available in the US. Ah, you're missing out on all those shows, Griffin.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_05] This is the problem. The overseas shows. They're all kind of hidden. Unless. Unless. Yes. You use ExpressVPN. Yes. Netflix, for example, hides content from you based on your location. All the streamers do. Mm-hmm. ExpressVPN lets you change your online location. There we go. So you can control where you want Netflix to think you're located.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_06] Look, I understand some frustration sometimes for people who listen to this show. We go through careers in order. We have a very set schedule. There's a movie. You see it's on the streaming service you have. You go, great. That episode's coming up in six weeks. I'll watch it then. And you come back six weeks later, it's been pulled down. Where'd it go? Where'd it go? Hungary. Why can I find it? Well, sometimes that's the answer.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_05] Sometimes they're hiding the movie in Hungary. Netflix has servers in over a hundred countries so you can gain access to thousands of new shows, never run out of stuff to watch if you use a VPN like ExpressVPN. This works with Disney Plus, BBC iPlayer and more. You fire up the app. Mm-hmm. Okay? You click one button to change location. You just pick. You pick where you want to be. It works on all your devices, phones, laptops, tablets, smart TVs and more. And you can stream in blazing fast HD speed with zero buffering.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_06] It's not throttling anything. Okay? It's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and The Verge. Mm-hmm. ExpressVPN also keeps you private and secure by rerouting all your traffic through an encrypted tunnel. Like Coraline. We tend to focus on the... Just like Coraline's tunnel. No, we tend to focus on the streaming benefits because that's what... Yeah, but it's security. It's security as well. And sometimes, look, maybe you're traveling overseas. You want to watch your favorite show, but that streaming service isn't available in the country, and then you can pretend you're back home. Have you watched anything, Griffin?

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_06] Do you have any examples? One to two, maybe? Yeah, like I don't... I don't want to... I don't want to spoil, but our next miniseries has a director... Whose stuff is really hard to find. Several films are just weirdly gone. Not on any streaming service. Not rentable legally through digital platform. Interesting. And then suddenly I'm going like, oh, well, well, Disney Plus in Belarus is looking pretty nice about now. That is fascinating. Yeah. Okay, so it will be expressly useful for... Expressly... Expressly useful.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_06] Listen, here's what I think. I think everyone should be smart. Stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. What you should do is get your money's worth at expressvpn.com slash check. Don't forget to use our link. That's expressvpn.com slash check to get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_05] And then all you have to do is you open it, you select your country, you tap one button to connect, you refresh Netflix or whatever, and then that's how it works. That's how it works. It's great. Uh, Strickland Express is, it's not a short film, but I do feel like it's a pretty... It's one hour.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_05] Simple, you know, economical kind of straightforward moving movie about a couple. Uh, Lou Jean, played by Goldie Hawn, and Clovis, played by William Atherton. Kind of crazy names. And Clovis is in jail, and they have a son, and he's, the son has been given to foster parents. And even though Clovis is about to be released from prison, just a few months, four months. He's on pre-release. Right.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_06] They're in the sort of like lower security...

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_05] Right, the sort of halfway... ...facing back. Right. Uh, she gets him out, breaks him out of jail, and they are gonna go retrieve their kid, I guess, which is stupid. But this whole movie hinges on the plan being inexplicable. Right. Right. They never really have a plan... They don't have a plan, yeah. ...beyond, we're just gonna go get him. And it's like, okay, and then what? It's like, nobody seems to have an answer.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_02] By the end, she's like, oh, like, we're gonna go to Mexico, we're gonna do... Sure. And like, at the very end, she's like, we're gonna do this right, we're gonna do parenting right, and it's like, wasn't this your whole plot? Like, wasn't this your whole idea?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_06] No, the major difference from the real story is that in the real story, he was not breaking out. No, they had already been released. He had been released, she had been released, and then they proceed to hold this cop car hostage. Right.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_05] And have them escort him across. They did want to try and get their son, and it had the same basic ending of he died. I think he was shot and killed instantly, and yeah, she went to jail. Yeah.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_06] It is very fascinating to think about this and Badlands coming out in successive years. Badlands is 1973. Is it? Yes, it is. Yes, it's an amazing movie. They feel like an incredible film, a similarly striking debut film from... A better film, I'll say. I love Badlands. Yeah, I do as well. Yeah. But they do feel like twinned movies in a weird way. Badlands is obviously like a period piece, but they both have this sort of like, what is up with the youth vibe? Mm-hmm.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_06] This sense of rebellion where Badlands also hinges on like, why are they killing people? Right. And it's like, I don't know. It's never really clear. They never like become malicious. You know, there is one death that sort of makes sense in terms of them trying to secure their freedom. And then you're like, why are they making this situation worse for themselves? But it is this sort of just like young in love feeling some sort of like conflict with the

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_06] culture around you and the old institutions and being like, we want to just do shit our way.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_05] Badlands actually is 74. It's actually released pretty much at the exact same time. It's a 73 movie on like, because it was at the New York Film Festival, but it was actually pretty much released like the same week as this movie. So you could basically see them around the same time.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02] But I will say one thing about, you know, the parented aspect of Sugar Land Express is really interesting and also like interesting in the context of like the whole Spielberg deal.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_06] Yes.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_02] With parents in the sense that like, obviously they are not primed to be good parents. But the sense of like flawed people wanting to, wanting to care for this child feels, you know, feels like sort of justifies their wrongheadedness in a way. Like they have this love for this kid, which obviously we never see in practice.

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_02] But there's a sense that like, yeah, she'd do anything for her kid, even though we like she obviously messed up in the past.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, my read on why they make the change that he is being that he is escaping. Right. That he is on the run before he's finished serving his time. Not just obviously it adds some greater movie stakes, but also it's like from that decision, you're immediately like, well, I understand why they lost custody of the child. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like beyond just the fact that obviously both of them went to jail.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_06] There is just the feeling of like watching this thought process or lack of thought play out of like one bathroom conversation turning into like you're going to put on sunglasses. We're going to get someone to drive us. We're going to go pick up our kid. You're like, this is not going to work. This is so poorly thought through. You can't even really explain this. Why the sudden immediacy? And like, yes, if you wait four months and then you calmly go to the foster home or you

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_06] go to whatever government office and you plead your case, you're going to have a better chance of getting that kid back than like holding someone hostage, getting them to drive you to the door and then like negotiating with Ben Johnson and being like, and we want our kid back.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_02] But it also adds to this, you know, even though there are no stakes to I mean, there are no stakes is the wrong word, even though like there's no reason that they have to be acting so quickly and erratically her desperation to get her child. Also, I think like endears you to her a little bit because it's like, you know, this sense of, well, I fucked up, but all I want to do is be with my kid, even though she's going

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02] about it in like the worst possible way.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_06] Well, in Badlands has the same thing where in both cases the couples feel like they're kind of just overgrown children. Yeah. Like they just don't know how to be grown ups.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_05] In Badlands, Sheen is just sort of this agent of chaos, right? Like he's just like doing and Sissy Spacex kind of along for the ride. But he's an agent of chaos in like a very disaffected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a boy lighting shit on fire. Right, right. And then in this, Han is the driver of everything. And Averton is kind of like, yeah, I don't know. You know, like, I'm, I'm like, he's, he's the one along for the ride.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_06] Well, and she's, the one thing she is fully empowered of is knowing how to use her charms to get people to do what she wants. But it's not in some obvious like seductress feminine wiles way. It's more just like, well, she's Goldie Hawn. She has movie star energy. She's cute. She's cute. She's compelling. People just are kind of taken by whatever she's saying.

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. So they initially just hitch a ride. They just hitchhike. But then they get stopped. His friends' parents. But then they get stopped by Maxwell Side, the patrolman. Made by Michael Sachs of J.P. Morgan fame. A man who I'm sure has done great things behind the scenes. Uh, and so they hold him hostage, but it is, and have him drive them. But it is the most chill hostage situation.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's nice. They sort of become friends. Right.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_05] This is not a thing where they're basically just like training a gun at him on all times. At a certain point, they're basically just all hanging out together.

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_06] Well, he doesn't, I don't think he really views them as dangerous. But he also is just immediately kind of like, what are you doing?

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_02] Well, there's also the really good sort of establishing like moment with him with the sort of drunk guy in his car. Mm hmm. Um, before he pulls them over where you're sort of like, this guy is sort of like whatever with the people in his car. Like he's sort of, he's sort of tolerant of them and their weirdness in a nice way, which I think sort of sets up the fact that he's going to be like, yeah, okay, guys, like, let's just deal with this and move along.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_06] So, Simms and I were kind of teeing this up at the end of our dual episode that this movie, much like the score is in John Williams filmography, a total like one of one outlier. There's no other Spielberg movie like this. And we were like, what tone is even close to this in one of his movies? And I do think like tonally Catch Me If You Can has a similar vibe.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_05] Melancholy too. Like the same kind of like light drama vibe. And almost a similar kind of look, like color palette and shit. But, but.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_06] Catch Me If You Can is more self-conscious, obviously, because it's doing a period thing. And it's him kind of doing a bit of an epic, like a weird kind of epic on its own odd

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_05] way. But it's the same kind of vibe of like, you're like, I'm having fun, but I have a feeling this won't end well. Now, Catch Me If You Can sort of has a happy-ish ending. Yes. But it's not like, you know, he gets away with it ending. It's kind of a, hmm.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_06] But the thing he truly never comes close to doing again in his filmography is this being a hangout movie. Right. That like, as we said, once like 30 minutes in, they're in like Saxe's car.

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_05] It's a slow chase movie. It's not like a real propulsive chase movie. It's a, everyone's kind of ambling along.

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_08] Ambling.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_05] This is.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_06] Entertainment. So this is what I'm kind of locking into, right? Ambling in this.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_05] Do not feel insincere to me. Rickman is, of course, referring to the short film that he made in the 60s. This film made in the 60s about a couple of hippies hitchhiking.

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. A-M-B-L-I-N apostrophe, which then he later removes the apostrophe and makes it a production company as if like, oh, yeah, I guess it's a real world that means something. It's like, no, it's just ambling without the G, right? I don't think either one's insincere. But these are the kind of like personal films that directors of his generation were making at this point of time. Speaking to their, the youth, right? And the vibes.

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_06] And these sort of like character pieces and actor driven pieces and hangout pieces and all this sort of shit. Kind of innately not who Spielberg is.

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_02] Not what he becomes for sure. And he seems so, you know, what we know about his youth, like so disconnected from all of that in any way, shape or form.

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_05] He was like a very serious, moody kid who was like very focused on his work. Yeah. But he lived out in the desert in Arizona. I feel like he does have some sense of that. He moved a lot too. And he lived in wildly different states. So he has this kind of sense of America. And like, I do say the shadow of Seth Rogen cucking his dad looms over the Sugarman Express. Right. You hear the laugh. No, I mean like, oh, oh, oh.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_05] Close Encounters is the movie, his third film, where you're like, oh, okay, this has been torn out of his soul for us. Right? Like that is, this is everything that's going on in this boy's brain. This and Jaws is a little more, both of them, they're both good movies. I take Sugarland and Jaws. But they're both, and Duel.

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_05] But they are both like, this is a supreme stylist who has grown up on a fire hose of like television and movies, like who just has such a sense of how to deliver entertainment.

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_06] So Duel is just like tie as a drum filmmaking exercise. Right? And then this is like character piece, hang out, like charm. But still like quietly flashing.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_02] But I also think, I don't know, but I do think it gets at something that like has preoccupied him for like his whole career, which is like the sense of how flawed people sort of sacrifice for their children.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. I mean, let's get back to that because there's a lot more to unpack in that. Right? But I think like Jaws is fascinating because it's basically combining everything he figured out on Duel and Sugarland into one movie.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_08] Sure.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_06] Which then becomes the alchemy of, oh, can he make like thrill ride entertainment that also has this level of characterization, specificity, performance, charm, wit, empathy, what have you. Right? But Jaws does feel in a way more personal than this movie does. In a certain way, it feels more reflective of his psyche. Whereas this movie feels like what you said, a story he remembers hearing on the news and being kind of compelled by, which is also how Malick talks about the Badlands.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_06] Which is like the Badlands. Badlands coming about was him being like, that's so weird that these two kids just killed a bunch of people. What were they thinking? Right? That he's sort of trying to like psychoanalyze them. But it's also a movie that's kind of about like, I don't know. Right. Yeah, like he's the answer. But in the soup of his generation, the movie Brats, there's the story that gets repeated a lot where, you know, Cassavetes was a big mentor to Scorsese. And Scorsese invites him to a screening of Boxcar Bertha.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_06] And he's like, what do you think? And Cassavetes is like, what the fuck are you doing? And Cassavetes is basically like, you're wasting your life. And he's like, you thought it's that bad? He's like, it's not bad. It's just whatever. Like this isn't what you became a filmmaker to make. Like, this is you trying to like make strategic career moves, pay your dues, whatever it is. Like, make the movie you'd be willing to die for. And that conversation motivates him to make Mean Streets. To basically sit down and be like, what's the movie only I can make?

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_06] And Cassavetes saw that and he was like, F, I hate this. Total F, right? But there was this feeling a lot of these guys, it's like you're paying your dues in the Corman fields, right? De Palma is like basically coming out of experimental theater, greetings high mom rule, but are like fairly inaccessible movies. And then he figures out like thrillers, right? Lucas is making a THX and people are like, make something about people, right?

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_01] And he's like, I'll try. Right. But like, I know American Graffiti.

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_06] But that's my point. Like, American Graffiti is the movie that comes out of like Coppola shaking Lucas the way that Cassavetes shake Scorsese, right? Shook Scorsese. Like, make the thing that only you can make. Like, what's your story? And Spielberg like doesn't know how to tell his story directly. He starts making these entertainments that are unbelievably personal and emotional because he knows how to tell it through refraction.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_06] But this feels like a distant movie that has all of his themes in it made very warmly.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, the refraction thing, like, I'm sure it's like impossible not to talk about like the Fablemans now like talking about him. But like, yeah, the only way he can look at his life is through is to what the only way he can watch his parents divorce is is to take out a camera. And I do think that, yeah, that he he finds even though this film has the sort of yes impetus of like, oh, I heard this on the radio and I think it's interesting.

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_02] I think he finds this really sort of perfect with this really personal story, which is ultimately what makes it so tragic, you know, by the end is that you do start to. You feel for feel for feel for feel for how much they care, despite and especially how much Lou Jean cares, just despite her wrongheadedness.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_06] Well, he also like not not to psychoanalyze him too much. Right. But like this feeling of kind of what you were saying of like his relationship to his parents for so long. And we talked about, I think, in at this point in his life, he was sort of like, I could not imagine being a parent. Right. And that's reflected in shit like Close Encounters.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_06] He watches that today and he's just like, I would never do that today as a filmmaker, because if you have a child, you could never imagine doing that in a certain way. Right. And I think a lot of that is like the kind of thing a lot of people go through in their 20s where they start to take the toll of the way in which their parents fucked them up. And there's like an anger that then goes to like the worst part of this is they actually were trying their best. I can't really villainize them. Yeah.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_06] Which is sort of the stance this movie has of like it is so commendable. They are willing to put everything on the line for the sake of their child. And yet everything they're doing is wrong and is actually just going to fuck up their ability to have a relationship with their child. Yeah. Really fucks up Hatherson's ability. I'd say majorly. He gets shot with a gun. He's got a pretty bad position as a father by the end of this movie.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_02] It also just there is this sort of trick to, you know, that first shot of the child, you know, in the foreground and he's with the dog and he's just like crying. And also it's Xanax son is the kid. But like is like, you know, there's this misery to the kid. And obviously he's the kid is probably fine with these stuffy duffy parents.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, you there the fun and the life that this couple, Lou Jean and Clovis has is so inherently attractive.

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_06] The first moment you see the kid, I believe, is like minute forty seven. Right. And you basically have these two mirrored shots. It comes right after the porta potty standoff. And then you have this shot. Of basically from inside the porta potty of Goldie opening the door. Right. Yeah. And then it cuts to right. Goldie opens the door from inside the porta potty.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_06] She closes the door and then it cuts in the blackness to the kid opening the door. And outside.

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_05] Verna Fields worked on this movie, obviously. Right. The legend in the.

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_06] Outside the press coming to interview the kid and the foster parents about this growing story. Right. The shot of the kid in silhouette from behind the door opening is so similar. Close and count. Yes. The most probably like the most famous shot. Yeah. Right. Except this is the first time we're seeing the kid and it's a moment of just like this kid doesn't know what's about to hit him. Like this kid is oblivious.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_02] But also the kid is oblivious the whole time. Like that is also the sort of the tragedy of it, too. This kid has no idea what's going on. Like he's so little like that. There's just this sort of aura of trauma around him. But like we don't. But he probably has no actual conception of what's going on in his life.

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_06] But like Spielberg is so close to making this pivot to realizing a lot of his magic is the ability to tell stories from the vantage point of a child. Right. And children who are cognizant at the center of this kind of chaos and they're processing it. They're digesting it. It's changing them. Even close encounters with the kid isn't the main part.

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_06] Or the kid is part of the cast, but the kid is very specific.

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_02] And in some ways, I think the fact that this kid is just not really cognizant and like sort of overwhelmed and you see him crying and, you know, is just being sort of shuffled from place to place also like sort of fits with the theme of the movie, too. And that like no one has any fucking idea what's going on here, you know? So and then, you know, and then you get back to the thing which you guys said, which is basically like Lugine and Clovis are children.

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_02] And there's like the incredible, you know, so Spielberg-y moment when they get in the van. What are those cars called? And they're watching the Looney Tunes through the window and you see it reflect in their faces and Clovis is doing the sounds. And you're just like, oh, yeah, you know, these are children themselves and they are Looney Tunes characters in a way.

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_06] I apologize. I correct myself. You have the earlier glimpse of the sun on the front lawn.

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I was talking about, which is the like that first, you know, there's a dog. Yeah.

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_06] But that's that's foreground. The kid just kind of playing innocently as the cop is pulling up in the back.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_02] And then the cop is pulling up and the kid starts like sobbing.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. So minute 27 is the entrance of Ben Johnson. Right. And in this movie, that's already taken this pivot of like, oh, how quickly they get comfortable basically being in a throuple with this cop. Non-sexual throuple. Right. Like now they're just like three folks hanging out on a road trip. You know, there's that immediate sense of like, are they like bulletproof because they have this guy on their side? They have this kind of like magic armor and now they're just going to drive to their destination.

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_06] And they think they will be able to make this work. And everyone else thinks like this is going to end up badly somehow. Ben Johnson's introduced at minute 27 and he gets a kind of very classical movie star introduction. He looks great. He looks incredible. And there's this air of like, here's a legend in your movie. Like, here's like a heavy hitter coming in. And the moment you'd expect in most movies, like, OK, now the plot's really going to kick in because now this guy is on the hunt.

[01:22:13] [SPEAKER_06] He's going to be like a fucking sniper rifle trying to take them down.

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. We're going to be bouncing between these. And this is right. Going to be the dominant supporting performance of the movie. And he's going to get an Oscar nomination. And Tommy Lee Jones or whatever, you know, in The Fugitive. Totally.

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_06] And yet he also has this much sort of like more melancholy, wistful energy. Hugely understated performance.

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_05] Totally good performance. Incredible performance, I think. But not like a big dominant character at all. Basically kind of just does it all through nothing. You kind of get everything you need to know about this guy through very little dialogue.

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_06] Like, when also the feeling that he it's not spoken, but that he is like, this is a tragic story.

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_05] Right. That he knows right away. Nothing good will come of this.

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_06] Exactly. That nothing good is coming of this. It's already a bad situation. And like, I mean.

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_02] And they either have to shoot them or figure out a way to stop them.

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_06] Right. Like, Last Picture Show is one of the shorter runtime to Oscar win performances ever. He's very little of the movie.

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_05] He just has the amazing monologue. He has one amazing monologue in the first 30 minutes. As does Cloris Leachman, basically. And each of them win an Oscar for it. Cloris Leach is really amazing in the movie and she's all over it. But I think they both are winning for these big speeches they have that they crush.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_06] Right. But hers comes at the very end. And Ben Johnson, without spoiling Last Picture Show, if people haven't seen it, is basically out of the movie at the 30 minute mark. He is good, though. He's fantastic. The lion, right? But you compare like that movie, like. Sam the lion. Foregrounding him so much at the beginning. Giving him one big emotional speech. And then he's gone. Right. Right. Versus this, where he's just kind of steady and stable throughout.

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, he's just he's almost not. He's just this steady hand. And you sort of. Yeah. You come in expecting him to be a villain, quote unquote, maybe. And instead, he's sort of as resigned as everyone else to. These kids are like, I don't. You know, I have to handle this in the best way possible. But I feel for these kids.

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_06] Well, there are two takes. There's one in which he's the villain and you want to see our heroes outwit him. Right.

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_02] And then, you know, they're never going to outwit them him because they're silly.

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_06] Right. But the way this movie is characterized with them being silly. There's also a version of this that the 30 minute mark he enters and you're like, finally, a grown up. Someone who's going to take responsibility. He's going to sort this out. And we're rooting for him to find some amicable solution.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_05] Everyone else is running off half cocked, but he wants to cool it down and maybe get them out of this alive. You know, that is your hope, sort of. Yeah. But then it doesn't happen. No. Gets shot.

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_06] He's just kind of patiently. Yeah. I mean, I love the scene where he takes down the two local dudes who have sort of been like self-deputizing and unloads their guns. And it's just like, this isn't like a game, you know?

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[01:25:00] [SPEAKER_05] Right. And I think that's Spielberg's take. Right. Is that it's like you have this tragic little story and wrapped around it is this little circus, this media circus that like helps nobody. And the movie isn't like Dog Day. Dog Day Afternoon is loud and very forceful. And political. Political and so like compelling to watch. And Sugar Land Express never gets to that kind of fervent, polemical point.

[01:25:30] [SPEAKER_05] It's more just quietly saying like, you know, isn't it a little sad how, you know, the story becomes people almost waiting to watch these guys get shot versus trying to figure out, you know, how to help them.

[01:25:45] [SPEAKER_02] No, I mean, well, but also, you know, the Dog Day Afternoon thing you're saying, it's like, yes, there's this sort of don't you want like, yes, everyone's sort of itching to watch them get shot. And it's interesting here. There's a kindness to the way people are perceiving that. Like, yes, there are the, you know, self deputy guys who are like, you know, let's let's shoot them very, you know, which feel I don't know, feels very modern in a way, in a gross way.

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_02] But then there's also this like, you know, but then there's also when they arrive at the town and they're just like, they're welcomed. They're open doors. They become folk heroes and they become which it's like, you know. Yeah. I mean, there's this weird kindness to the whole movie about them, too.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. They kind of know they're screwed. Well, and also the spirit of it is like Spielberg reading this story in the newspaper. Right. And you have to imagine he's probably reading this as a resolved story. Hey, weird thing happened.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_05] Sure.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_06] Right.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_05] He's dead. She's in jail. Maybe he later learns that she got out and did manage to get custody. I don't know.

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_06] It's basically been packaged into bite sized entertainment as a story with a beginning and middle and an end of an odd thing that happened. And that becomes the kind of thing that you can sort of gawk over.

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_06] And he's making a movie that's focusing on all of the things that the newspaper would not cover, which is what is the what are the fucking conversations they had? So wait, these three people were in a car together for how many hours? How many days? How did they eat? So they had to go to drive throughs only. So what? They're just hanging out and eating chicken like the movie is all the hangout shit that is. Well, you could just hit the big bullet points of. They hold this guy at gunpoint. They get the car.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_06] There's a final standoff, whatever it is, you know, some big emotional reckoning with the foster parents or whatever. And he's like, no, the movie is about like all this stuff in between that happens. Yeah. And that weird reality where it's like they're basically holding existence hostage. They're in this like transitory state that is not sustainable.

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, it is their moment of liberation. You know, he was in jail. She wasn't we know she was in jail beforehand. You know, this is the one moment where they have this idea that they can do anything and they're doing it with this ostensibly like good natured thing, you know, in there in in the back of their minds, which is like, let's get our kid. But it's also it is a joy ride. It is. It is fun.

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, I'm basing this predominantly off of movies and TV shows. Right. But all the scenes we see where someone's holding a bunch of people hostage inside a gunpoint and they're demanding a helicopter and a million dollars and a private island and whatever the fuck it is, I'm just like, how many stories historically are there of, as Ben would say it, it all working out? You know, like I just figured out the situation and they never caught up to me. I negotiated so successfully that I released all the hostages. I got everything I wanted.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_06] I had political immunity and they never caught up with islands.

[01:28:57] [SPEAKER_03] It's beautiful. Right.

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_06] And I'm like, you know, I've seen eight trillion fictionalized, completely false versions of it and versions of it based on true stories that are fictionalized and whatever. But all of them end with eventually they just you can't outrun it. Right. These weird like standoff situations where you're in conversation with authorities and they're just trying to get you to let go, let go of the vehicle, of the weapon, of the hostage, of whatever it is. And they'll promise you everything. And you think you can gain this out to your own advantage.

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_06] And it just like fucking never works out. Like maybe our listeners will write in and be like, here, here are the 20 most famous examples of someone just nailing it. But I feel like those stories existed. We would know them. So from the moment you get into this situation where you're like, the longer this goes on, you're just kind of prolonging the inevitability. How does this end? Do I fight it violently? Do I just like hand myself over and go back to prison? Like there's no version which they go like, you know what?

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_06] If you let go of the car, we'll let you move into this house and raise this child.

[01:29:59] [SPEAKER_05] Because they don't kill anyone, there is a version of them being like, look, we're sorry. We shouldn't have done this. And the answer is like, well, you're going back to prison probably with a little extra. You kidnapped a cop, but you're not going to die. And you're, you know, who knows what will...

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe one day you'll see your kid again. Maybe one day you'll see your kid again. Right now, you know.

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_06] The logical fallacy of people in this situation is they're like, fuck, I just can't go back to prison again. Is there any other option? But also it's like third option.

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_05] These are people in desperate circumstances. It's a movie about people where it's just kind of like, they just know like, no, man, like it kind of has to be all or nothing. That's the vibe of this couple of like, look, either we're going to somehow pull this off in some fantasy cartoon way. We'll make it across the border and live this paradise life. Or what's going to happen is what we kind of don't want to think about, but is always sort of going to be our end, which is like, yeah, either we're in the slammer.

[01:30:58] [SPEAKER_05] We're dead or whatever. And like, at least we gave it a shot. But it also speaks like they're just not going to be like, oh, you know, I'm going to put my nose to the grindstone and I'm going to convince these people.

[01:31:06] [SPEAKER_06] But the larger cultural themes that the movies are really tackling at this point as the movies are trying to speak to a younger generation. Who just feel without options. Yeah. Feel without options and are just like, all of this feels wrong. I want to fight against this without any sense of what I'm looking for instead, other than that. I need to push past everything that's being told to me as a given. Ben, I feel like you wanted to say something.

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_03] Often when people commit crimes. Yes. They're. I was kind of trying to cue Ben up. Not really thinking it. Exactly. Right. And so people, for whatever reason, just go through with it and don't think beyond just the goal of I'm going to rob this liquor store. I need the money.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_05] And then I'll have money. Right. And then I'll figure it out. And then, yeah. And then. That's today's problem is I need money. Right. In parenting. I'm a parent. You are. Times three. Now, you know, there's sort of, there's the sort of gentle parenting world or whatever. And sometimes people say like, you shouldn't say, be careful to your kid all the time when your kid is fetching knives from the stove or whatever your, you know, insane thing your kid wants to do. Climb the Empire State Building.

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_05] You shouldn't say you shouldn't say be careful, but you can't.

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, what are you saying instead of be careful?

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_05] I'm going to get to that. But like the idea being, you say, be careful. You're kind of instilling fear in them. This is what awful parenting blogs do. They're just like, watch your language in every single way. And if you don't behave this way, you're terrible. But nonetheless, instead, you're supposed to say, what's your plan? Right. You're supposed to say as your kid, I guess, is climbing up the couch. You're supposed to be like, what's your plan? Right. Like you're like, so that's sort of the thing where the kid is like, well, I want to get to the top of the couch. And you're like, you're the one who has to instill in them. Do you do this?

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_05] Well, what's going to happen when you get to the top of the couch?

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_02] Are you doing this now?

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_05] I've done it, but I say be careful all the time because I'm a bit of a nervous Nelly.

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no shit. But like, I don't know. I'm not a parent, but I think that's silly.

[01:33:00] [SPEAKER_05] Someone should say to these guys, what's your plan? But if you ask them, they would be like, our plan is to make it to Mexico and we'll figure it out. Top of couch good. I mean, hell yeah. Wait, what? Top of couch good. Who are you, J.D. Vance? Like, raising Arizona. Wait. No, raising Arizona. I'm just barreling past that. No! No!

[01:33:21] No!

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_05] Raising Arizona Griffin. He likes the inside of the couch more. Yeah, raising Arizona. The movie comes out in the late 80s. Yes. Kind of has a plot like this. Yes, it does. Obviously, a much more absurd movie. Right. But it's the same. And they're not kidnapping their baby. They're just kidnapping a baby that they kind of feel like is sort of a free baby that they

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_06] can have. And that is a movie that walks you through them being like society basically is set up in a way where this is our only way to solve this.

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_05] We deserve a baby. We're good people. We're sweethearts. We're just going to go get a baby. And we're going to figure it out. What I love about raising Arizona is they kind of are, you know, doing it for a while. And then, yes, it comes apart and they return the baby and it actually works out for them. Yes. And the ending of Raising Arizona is so moving. Yes. Yes. But that to me is the sort of fun version of the Sugarland Express. I agree. But here's like the even more Looney Tunes.

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. The lack of a plan in this movie is what makes it most fascinating to me. Right. And yet that I bought a bag of Beetlejuice gummies, discounted Halloween candy, and they are so addicted to them. Unbelievable. Weirdly good. So I went back to Target to be like, they must still have some more, probably even more discounted. And they're not there. And now I'm like, fuck, do I go online and figure out where to buy more of them in bulk? Because these are these are somehow the best sour gummies I've ever had. I don't know why.

[01:34:44] [SPEAKER_06] And on top of that, they look like spiders and skulls and eyeballs. And they come in bags with sandworms on them.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_02] There's only one gummy in each bag?

[01:34:52] [SPEAKER_06] Huge waste of plastic. I mean, I think they're meant to be fucking trick or treat.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_01] Even if I was trick or treating, I'd be fucking pissed.

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_06] I agree. But I like that they're big. I like that they're hearty gummies. David. Yeah. I've suffered a great loss recently. Oh, no. A profound loss. What? Half a tooth. Oh, yeah, that's true. They sawed half your tooth off. I had a coronectomy. They cut my tooth in half. And I'll tell you what an experience like that does to a person. Go ahead. Makes you really value the teeth you do have. You want good teeth. My full teeth. Mm-hmm. This was a trouble tooth. And so they took part of it out.

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_06] But the teeth I got, the good ones in there, I want to take good care of them. And sometimes oral hygiene can be a real pain in the keister to stay on top of.

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. So why don't you get yourself Quip 360? It's an oscillating toothbrush, Griffin, that's literally going to revolve around you. That's what I like. I've been using Quip for a long time. But the 360 is the, you know, the kind of like round brush. Sure.

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. This is the whole thing with Quip.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_06] It's an electric toothbrush that doesn't overcomplicate the most basic daily ritual. I feel like Quip just exists to make this as easy as possible.

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_05] Very simple designs, ultra quiet, super clean, you know, easy to maintain and is scientifically, according to the American Dental Association, scientifically proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one. And if you don't like it, return it for free within 30 days. It's fine.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_06] It's easy to travel with. It is convenient. It's easy to clean. And if you do love it, you can brush easy knowing you get a free lifetime warranty for purchasing on GetQuip. That's Q-U-I-P dot com. And the opportunity to subscribe to Refill Heads by mail every three months so you never have to go to the store. This is a part I like. That's the kind of thing I forget.

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_05] You don't have to go to the store. It just happens. They just send it to you.

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_06] It shows up and you go, oh, right. Time to change.

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_05] I get flossed too. I get a bunch of Quip stuff sent to me every, you know, a few months. It's really, really helpful. They've got 25,000 five-star reviews and, you know, people love Quip. And they got a perks program.

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_06] You know, I love perks programs. So you do love perks. Quip perks. Quip. Quip puts. Quip perks is a little hard to say. I'm going to say. That's just for me. Quip puts their money where their mouth is. When you subscribe to AutoShip, you'll be enrolled in Quip perks to earn credit back over time.

[01:37:13] [SPEAKER_05] Just for listeners of Blank Check, get 20% off site-wide and a free travel case and countertop stand at getquip.com slash check. That's getquip.com slash check.

[01:37:25] [SPEAKER_06] Free your mouth today and save 20% site-wide plus a free travel case and countertop stand at getquip. Quip.com slash check.

[01:37:34] [SPEAKER_05] Getquip. Quip.com slash check.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_04] Quip.

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_05] Quip.

[01:37:50] [SPEAKER_06] Listen, what I was going to say. There's this weird kind of juxtaposition, I would say, of like, you know, William Atherton goes to the bathroom. She's waiting in the stall. This is the beginning of the movie, right?

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_02] She leads him into the bathroom.

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_06] Right.

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_02] She leads him into the men's room and he's like, you got to get out of here.

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_06] Right. And he's like, what are you doing here? And she's like, I can't wait. And he's like, right here, right now. And she's he's like, I'll be out in four months. And she's like, I can't wait that long. Right. So you're like, oh, basically like unplanned conjugal visit. Right. Spur of the moment. Heat of passion. They're making out. He pulls down her pants. Great Spielberg shot of her with second pair of jeans underneath. He goes, there's another pair of pants underneath. And she goes, yeah, we're leaving.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_06] And you're like, oh, she did have a level of plan of wearing two outfits at once so that she could go into the bathroom and like quick change and pass clothes off to him and they could walk out of there. So there's a level of intentionality of she left home that morning with that much figured out.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_02] Well, but that's I think that is very purposeful. It's like she only has that figure. Correct. She has she has a plan. She does have a plan. But the plan. But the plan ends there. And it's like we're going to walk out and we're going to get in somebody's car and then we're just going to drive.

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_06] It's the least plan I've ever seen. And yet it's not just that in the spur of the moment, she's like, fuck it. Let's make a run for it. She's planned. She planned enough to wear two pairs of jeans. And that's the end of it. It's the cake and the cartoons. Yes. With the nail file inside. Right. And you're like, even if the cake makes it through.

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_03] Right.

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_06] And the guy's able to slowly but meticulously grind through the bars. Then what? Then what? That's just the start of it.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_05] Has anyone ever actually done that? You know, like, has anyone ever actually seen something? Yeah, my uncle.

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_03] My uncle can.

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_05] He nail filed his way out of a prison? Yep. Is that true? No. I don't know. I believe it. Okay.

[01:39:54] [SPEAKER_02] I just think of the cake escape in Grand Budapest. Yeah.

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_06] Well, it's a great question. Is that a thing that became shorthand in cartoons and such? Because there was some example. Did it happen one time? That actually you're like, no, the origin of that is Bugs Bunny. Right. Bugs Bunny came up with that.

[01:40:13] [SPEAKER_05] No criminal ever even attempted to do that. I still watch Looney Students with my kids sometimes. And I watched this Daffy Duck one that's set on the Hollywood lot in the 40s. He's just, it's just filled with jokes about, you know, 30s and 40s Hollywood. Sure. And I was like, this is the most inscrutable thing I've ever looked at. All of this is flying over her head.

[01:40:31] [SPEAKER_06] Do you understand how important that was imprinting upon me where I like see that cartoon? I'm like, I need to figure out who all these people are. Me too.

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_05] It's called Hollywood Daffy. Yes. And it's got like, you know, Betty Davis, Johnny Weissmuller, Charlie Chaplin, Jimmy Durante, Bing Crosby, like...

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_06] And all the caricatures and you're like, are there people who really look like this? Yes. Jimmy Durante's nose is the size of his leg and like...

[01:40:55] [SPEAKER_05] The joke is that... Clark Gable has Dumbo ears. Jimmy Durante has like a house that he's in and there's like an extension for his nose.

[01:41:03] [SPEAKER_06] That's fucking 100 comedy points.

[01:41:05] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. He did. He had a big schnoz.

[01:41:07] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah, the big schnoz.

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_05] So... But Sugar Land Express. Yeah. Sorry. No, I'm just trying to like... Are there plot points we need to hit? It's a somewhat of a tough movie to go beat by beat through because it's shaggy. But I'm trying to think of like what are other plot things we need to mention?

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_02] I do love the bathroom. Like when she needs to piss. And there's, you know, he has that frame which where he keeps Atherton in the foreground and she's in the background and she keeps running back and forth. And she's doing her little pee-pee dance.

[01:41:39] [SPEAKER_06] But this is what I mean about the Spielberg. Like it's all storytelling economy where he's like, how do you get as much in one shot?

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_06] In one scene as possible.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_02] And it all feels so him in terms of the framing of faces and, you know, it's all there. Yeah, I don't know. They go get chicken. They go to the car lot. They sleep in the RV, which is a term I remember today.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_05] The term is runaway vacation, but, you know, RV for short.

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_06] Six-inch summer, is that it? Yeah, he had a six-inch summer. Robin Williams gives Joss Hutcherson a motivational talk about the fact that he's picked on by the bigger kids at school. And he's like, I was like you when I was you. It was very short. And then one year I had a six-inch summer. I came back and it spreaded like a beanstalk. And six-inch summer lives in my head forever. Especially because Joss Hutcherson never got any taller. Oh, he, anything got shorter.

[01:42:32] [SPEAKER_05] Robin Williams. He had a negative six-inch summer. I was watching clips of Robin Williams on Craig Ferguson recently. Fun to watch. Yeah.

[01:42:39] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. That's a real we didn't know what we had. We took him for granted. And we took the Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson for granted. Well, that's what I meant.

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_08] Totally agree.

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_06] I feel like Robin got his flowers in his lifetime. Not consistently, but across on balance. Craig Ferguson, it was just like, we let this go. And now, like, fucking late night talk shows are greater.

[01:43:01] [SPEAKER_05] The shift from Ferguson to Corden. Beginning of the end. Is beginning of the end. But it's also, is that the most drastic shift in vibes, like, and quality? Because it's like, from Leno to Fallon, it's kind of like, well, you know. From Carson to Leno. Right. Carson to Leno isn't great.

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_06] But I guess old Carson was pretty phoned in. Right. Yeah. But Corden is just, like, doubling down on everything that was already heading in a bad direction.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_05] Killborn to Stewart is, like, one of the biggest leaps in history. People try to act like Killborn was good. Killborn was terrible. Yeah. Killborn was so bad.

[01:43:35] [SPEAKER_06] I talk about a guy who had a six-inch summer. Did he ever? Paul drank a water. He had it at some point. Right. Yeah. He had several. Yeah.

[01:43:43] [SPEAKER_07] Maybe.

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_06] I just like that when. What else happens? When Atherton's being questioned by his friend who's trying to stop him from, like, you're going to fucking ruin your life. Don't walk out of here. His response is just, I got it. If I don't, she's going to run off. Right.

[01:43:57] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. He's the driver. He's the passenger.

[01:44:02] [SPEAKER_06] But everything is just sort of, like, caught up in the intensity of a moment.

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_05] I don't. I don't dislike William Atherton at all. I think he's a very good screen presence. And he's fine in the movie. I kind of wish someone else was in that role who sort of popped more. There's nothing. There's nothing wrong with this movie. Yeah. It's a good movie. So it's not like I'm like, ah, if only fucking, you know, Robert Redford had played that role. I'm not saying that.

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_02] There's also something nice about him being such a zero.

[01:44:28] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, there is. That's my point.

[01:44:29] [SPEAKER_02] You know? Yeah. Like, she's so vibrant and he's sort of, as you said, like, he's along for the ride. I just want one more. So, like, something like him being, like, sort of a nerdy little, you know.

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_05] Can I have, like, one more fun character in this movie? Yeah. Right? Because it's basically like, Han is a firecracker.

[01:44:46] [SPEAKER_02] Slide is pretty boring.

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_05] Johnson is very compelling. But, you know, it's a quiet performance. Yeah. But, yeah, slide's a little boring. Atherton, he's doing his thing. But it's not, you know, like, what if there was just, like, I don't know, like a funky grandma or something? Like, just like someone else. Right?

[01:45:02] [SPEAKER_06] But Atherton is what Ben's describing. He's just, like, a low-level criminal who's not really thinking. He's just kind of, like, driven by, like, energy.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_05] I don't think. We have already recorded our Jaws episode. So it's not like we start the Jaws episode by being, like, Steven Spielberg, after making the Sugar Land Express, was like, I need a fucking movie where a shark bites someone in half, goddammit. But it does feel that way where in Sugar Land he's like, I'm treating this, like, pretty realistically. And this is a human movie about, like, people in odd circumstances. And in Jaws he's like, Quint will go, and, like, it's going to be big and, like, explosive.

[01:45:36] [SPEAKER_06] Can I circle back to, this was a thesis forming in my head, right? All this stuff about the cultural moments, looking at him relative to the other movie brats and as they're developing, right? All the other guys I said who basically had to be forced to make a personal film away from commercial instincts and then they found their voice, right? Where Spielberg starts with something that feels more like a smaller, more personal film on its face.

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_06] And the other guy who's kind of similar to him in this way is Coppola, who kept doing these sort of, like, exercises. And it was like, no one wants these. These are not connecting. And then it's sort of like, if you don't make a hit next, you're done. You're, like, Wunderkin status.

[01:46:19] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, enough with your Fiddy and Grimbo and your Rain people. And he's like, go.

[01:46:22] [SPEAKER_06] And it's like, take this fucking beach read and make this something that works. And what's weird is in the case of both Jaws and Godfather, these guys find really personal ways into this material. It's not just like the sort of, I got to take a job for hire and just make it the best that I can in the sort of, let's say, Zemeckis romancing the stone thing. I just need a hit. Give me a solid script. I'll direct the shit out of it. But that feels like a job for hire for him.

[01:46:50] [SPEAKER_06] Whereas Godfather and Jaws, those two guys found things that no one else could have found at that.

[01:46:54] [SPEAKER_05] They're working off bestselling material. So they you're right that they have that in their hands of like, well, that's a bit of a guarantee, isn't it? Like, this is something that people have even heard of. Right. This movie is going to sell itself in a certain way. But also, those are not movies where they were like, yeah, I'll just direct the shit out of it. You're right. It's much, much more expensive than that. What they did. They like tunneled into it.

[01:47:13] [SPEAKER_06] And they both were guys who maybe needed to, as I was saying, kind of refract themselves through someone else's story.

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_05] I just feel like with Sugar Land, like there's just a lot of restraint with Spielberg. Not that this is it has flashy moments. And obviously people like Pauline Kale watched it and were like, wow, this guy is a stylish filmmaker.

[01:47:33] [SPEAKER_02] But I mean, it's so stylish. But yes. Yeah.

[01:47:35] [SPEAKER_05] But it is not. I mean, what are like, let me look at the movies of 1974.

[01:47:40] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, and I think what that gets down to ultimately, and I don't want to repeat it, but it's like this weird sweetness to it, too.

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_05] That is like Spielberg.

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_02] Which, yeah, which is so Spielberg-y. But like, because I think the thing is, is when you're dealing with people like this, there's a, you know, making it flashier might mean sort of, like, obviously there's a Looney element to them. So I don't want to say, like, cartoony to bat, but might turn them into, you know, more over-the-top characters. But instead, sort of the lack of flash is just him burrowing into character. Yeah. Is that? Yeah.

[01:48:17] [SPEAKER_06] It's fascinating because, you know, famously, Pauline Kale put her, like, chips down and was like, this is one of the most exciting debuts in movie history. And then she saw Raiders of the Lost Ark and was like, hack. Hack. Dog shit. Hack to her. But she, like, went all in on him on this one. And you read the tenor of that review and you look at the other reviews that this movie got, and most people are kind of like, eh, whatever. It's like some flashy thing. Yeah. It's got moments. It doesn't really hang together. Yeah, right, right, right. We'll talk about it. Yeah, we'll talk about it.

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_06] But there was a feeling coming out of this that it was like, most people were not bowled over by this. It didn't even have the sort of dual, like, oh, shit, people in the industry are sitting up straight. He was in a position where he needed to, coming off of this, make something that worked. This thing totally flatline commercially, you know? And people were just kind of comparing it unfavorably to Bonnie and Clyde and other shit like this. Lovers on the Run movies.

[01:49:08] [SPEAKER_05] I can tell you a little bit about that, but is there anything more we want to talk about in the movie before we do that? Talk about the reaction to the movie.

[01:49:18] [SPEAKER_06] Should we talk about the ending proper? I mean... Sad. The bear. I think it is funny. The bear gets me. If you try to put yourself in the headspace of 1974... Sure. I'm in part two.

[01:49:31] [SPEAKER_05] Sure. X's Chainsaw Massacre.

[01:49:33] [SPEAKER_06] But you're also like this Spielberg kid. Scheinberg's Folly, right? This young kid he signed to, like, a multi-year deal. What's he doing? He just makes car pictures in the desert?

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_05] It's true.

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_06] And you look at the negative reviews for this movie and people are like, he just seems really interested in the cars. He's his gearhead. Yeah. They truly were just sort of like... Which is so weird. I mean...

[01:49:53] [SPEAKER_05] Because it is such a character-based humanistic... But it's got really good vehicle action in it. When it has that stuff, it's well done. But it's... Yeah. This movie is not like an Evil Knievel style, like, car phantasm. Yeah.

[01:50:07] [SPEAKER_02] It's like credits rolling over just, like, slide. Just, you know, sitting there by the water.

[01:50:13] [SPEAKER_05] Similarly to the ending of Dueling with Dennis Weaver just sitting by the cliff. It has almost the exact same shot.

[01:50:17] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. And Jaws has similarly... Of just the sundown, the silhouettes, and just someone left to kind of process what they've just been through.

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_05] It is interesting to think that Texas Chainsaw Massacre came out the same year, which it did. Because it's, you know, obviously...

[01:50:31] [SPEAKER_02] Different portrait of Texas.

[01:50:32] [SPEAKER_05] True. Spielberg, like, big times Tobey Hooper 10 years later, right? Or, yeah, about 10 years later with Paul Gergeist.

[01:50:39] [SPEAKER_06] But it's another film that feels weirdly twin to this in certain ways. It is, yeah.

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_05] But they are contemporaries, really. Even though by that point Spielberg was, you know, more powerful. This film... Yeah, the ending. Yeah. Atherton dying. Yeah, I don't know. Is there anything else to say about it? It's sort of like, this is what's going to happen. Like, it's not even some big moment. It's just like, yeah, someone was finally going to just get off a shot because, like, they've been waiting to.

[01:51:03] [SPEAKER_02] I also think there's just, like, the credit to Goldie's performance, though, too. Yeah. Which I do think is really, you know, like...

[01:51:11] [SPEAKER_05] She can't believe it.

[01:51:12] [SPEAKER_02] In that moment, like...

[01:51:13] [SPEAKER_05] Her whole world collapsed. Even though it's like, everyone might have seen this coming.

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_02] Everything, yeah. Yeah. But everything has drained out of her face. And she... All that light is gone. And I do think, like, you know, I do think this movie, you know, like, it does really sort of surprise you in what she can do. And I think she sort of, in some ways, rarely, like, used that full toolbox in the rest of her career.

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_06] Well, and when we did our Swing Shift episode, the fascinating thing is, you know, she demands these recuts and reshoots because she feels like she was being minimized in the movie. Christine Lottie was getting the attention. She wanted more of the focus on the chemistry between her and Kurt. And then you watch the original cut that we did. And she's so much better in the demicut. She was wrong. But it's like a performance that's tonally much closer to her in the final moments of this movie.

[01:52:07] [SPEAKER_06] And then, like, Goldie's, like, sort of rock-solid movie star persona from the late 70s on becomes, like, she seems just kind of like a ditzy, funny girl. Yeah. But she's smarter than she seems. And she's got a deeper well of emotion than she seems. Right? And this is not that. We're like this. You're watching it the whole time. And you're like, is she crazy? Is she an idiot? Is she, like, playing everybody? Like, you can't quite figure out what's driving her.

[01:52:35] [SPEAKER_06] And then what is so effective about that final moment is she plays it in a way where you immediately see, oh, she genuinely just never thought this could happen.

[01:52:45] [SPEAKER_02] It's pure impulse. Like, you realize that, like, everything she was acting on is pure impulse. And I think that's sort of what makes the plight of, like, her trying to get the kids sort of so moving, too, is that, like, yeah, she doesn't realize this is a bad idea. Because she does sort of truly love her kid. And she does just want to take the there's nothing else going on in her head other than just like that pure goal. And so it becomes so sad.

[01:53:13] [SPEAKER_06] Versus, like, from not here on out, but shortly hereafter, Goldie's whole thing being like, you think she's just dumb, but actually she has the bones to be the best soldier in the army. This is a movie where the reveal at the end, not that it's like a twist or anything, is like there's actually kind of nothing else going on.

[01:53:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:53:31] [SPEAKER_06] She's not. There's no.

[01:53:32] [SPEAKER_02] She's like a shell of it. She becomes a shell of a person. And you're just like, holy shit.

[01:53:37] [SPEAKER_05] I don't know. This is not one of my favorite Spielberg movies. I mean, is anyone's?

[01:53:42] [SPEAKER_01] No. No.

[01:53:43] [SPEAKER_05] But every time I've watched it, which is basically like three times in my life, like every 10 years or so, I've always been quietly impressed. Like, you know, and I know what to expect.

[01:53:55] [SPEAKER_06] And nonetheless, you saying, is it anyone's favorite? I've relayed to you a number of conversations I've had with people when people off the record ask me, hey, who's coming up on the podcast? And I go, we're doing the first half of Spielberg. I've had a couple of people, particularly filmmakers say, you know what fucking rules?

[01:54:11] [SPEAKER_05] Sugarland Express. It does rule. And I think it's for those guys also probably they're just so used to the imagery of his big movies and you watch something like Sugarland. You're like, wow, there's stuff to discover here.

[01:54:21] [SPEAKER_06] But it also feels like and part of it's like maybe, you know, 50th anniversary stuff. But like it is recirculating a bit more for a long time. It was like only available in Spielberg box sets.

[01:54:32] [SPEAKER_02] I hadn't seen it and I went to see it at Film Forum. Griffin and I tried to organize it together, but it didn't work. But I also think it did like a big Tribeca thing.

[01:54:44] [SPEAKER_06] Yes. And Spielberg spoke and was like, this might be the first time it's screened commercially in decades, which I kind of feel like can't be true. But also it does feel like for a long time it was treated as like weird early curio.

[01:54:58] [SPEAKER_05] The film was tested in the fall of 73. Universal loves it. They're like really impressed with the movie. But preview audiences were shown it. And this is interesting on a double bill with Paper Moon, which makes sense vibe wise. Right. But maybe they're also just kind of like, I'm loving that movie. I just watched it like, OK, here's Sugarland Express. And it's like, that's not jiving with them or whatever. But it basically got kind of bad test results.

[01:55:27] [SPEAKER_06] Paper Moon is also just like a fucking crowd pleaser. Like you read the way people were talking about it at the time.

[01:55:32] [SPEAKER_02] Tatum, like being all cute.

[01:55:34] [SPEAKER_06] Despite it getting Oscar nominations, people were like, this is just sort of like popcorn fluff for the masses. Like this thing's fun, quaint, black and white. Right.

[01:55:44] [SPEAKER_05] About a Bible salesman. Right. Fake problems. Spielberg says, you know, I'm sorry. Universal executive Bill Gilmore says like the first half audiences were with when it was more of a caper. That's fun. And then as it starts to kind of curdle into, you know, melancholy and darkness, they would lose the audience. And the ending, they would just kind of be sitting there in silence. Doesn't ever become like a proper chase movie. And it doesn't ever or becomes less and less of a Goldie Hawn picture as it goes on.

[01:56:13] [SPEAKER_05] Um, Spielberg, uh, the original cut was about 121 minutes. Spielberg cut it down a little bit, trying to kind of hone it a little more commercially. Uh, it wasn't forced to, but he just sort of did it. They intended to put this movie out Thanksgiving 73, but because it's not testing very well, they kind of dumped it into March 74 and it made $7 million and was pulled from theaters quickly and like, meh. And it came out around the same time as Badlands and Thieves Like Us.

[01:56:43] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, wild. And there was kind of this like, yeah, there's a little too much of the same thing right now.

[01:56:48] [SPEAKER_06] The long tail of Bonnie and Clyde of people trying to recapture that type of movie. None of those are carbon copies. But I also think Badlands was not a big hit, but it was like kind of a film festival sensation. And there were like 50 people who responded the way that Pauline Kael responded. Where coming off of that, it was just like Malick's anointed, people want his next project, and Paramount's going like, what's the most ambitious idea you got?

[01:57:15] [SPEAKER_06] Whereas coming off of this, Universal is not like, great, do another one of those. Universal's like, you got to figure out what your thing is. And it's, I think the reason we've been saying that a lot of filmmakers now seem to be rediscovering and finding a new love for this movie is it is this kind of like fascinating sliding doors glimpse into like, what if Steven Spielberg wasn't forced into becoming Steven Spielberg? And in a way, what he became feels like the most honest reflection of who he was meant to be. Right.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_06] It worked out. Imagine a path in which this movie, you could imagine this movie making $14 million and the studio being like, cool, you make youth pictures.

[01:57:55] [SPEAKER_05] And he just stays there for a while. He could sort of turn around there. I mean, Spielberg recollects, you know, that period when it was supposed to come out. You've got Exorcist, The Sting, Papillon, American Graffiti, Serpico, these like big movies, you know, with big stars making a lot of money. And by the time Sugar Land came out, he just kind of felt like an afterthought. But the fact that it was like, oh, based on a true story, it's like, that's not that juicy a pitch.

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_06] Right. There's another movie saying that. It's about a guy named Leatherface.

[01:58:28] [SPEAKER_05] The story's a little bit wild. Now, the title of the movie is very subtle and will not grab your eye.

[01:58:34] [SPEAKER_06] Wait, you told me this shit's true? Texas Trainsell is the funniest based on a true story where it's like, what's the true story? And they're like, well, like some people have killed people in the past. Murder exists.

[01:58:45] [SPEAKER_05] It's kind of about Ed Gein. It's not like remotely about Ed Gein in that Ed Gein also used human skin. That's like it. Anyway, Spielberg, this is a good quote, says, After Sugar Land, I learned how important marketing is. I think it's as important as making the picture. And that is part of the Spielberg thing, without a doubt. He says if he did it again, he might make it differently. He might have the first half really be focused on Ben Johnson's character, Captain Tanner, and have everything sort of from inside the police part of it

[01:59:13] [SPEAKER_05] and don't see the fugitives until you get to them later. Interesting Spielberg-y kind of swerve.

[01:59:19] [SPEAKER_02] It feels like a late Spielberg thing in the sense that it's like, it's like, okay, like a bridge of spies type of thing. Or like, you know, it feels like, you know, procedure and authority feels like something. Yeah. Like he would definitely do later in his career.

[01:59:35] [SPEAKER_06] It also feels like Spielberg's still being haunted by the energy dip from test screening audiences. He's still 50 years later trying to game out. Like, is there a way I could have kept them locked in the whole time? Because starting with Jaws, he becomes the guy that like straps you into the roller coaster and you're with him.

[01:59:54] [SPEAKER_05] So Pauline Kael, after a few jabs about how, you know, she's not sure if Spielberg is actually smart and the movie is commercial and shallow, but she's like, composition seems to come naturally to him as it does to some of the young Italians. I assume she means Marty and Francis. And Brian.

[02:00:23] [SPEAKER_05] The thing with Pauline Kael where you're reading her reviews and it happens all the time when you read them, where she's like, eh, this piece of shit. And then four sentences later, she's like, I don't know, maybe he's the next Howard Hawks. And you're like, uh, that guy was pretty good.

[02:00:34] [SPEAKER_02] Look, I also like a pretty good comparison for Spielberg.

[02:00:37] [SPEAKER_06] It is. He is. I mean, she's right. I didn't only get goosebumps from that sentence as a girl to just be like, God, the degree to which she fucking nailed it.

[02:00:46] [SPEAKER_05] She just was fucking right. The only thing she's wrong about is by the time he makes like Raiders of the Lost Ark, she's like, poo. He's just treading on his own jokes and this is airless. And you're just like, Pauline, what's the matter with you?

[02:00:59] [SPEAKER_06] Who like stepped on your feet today? I wish I could go in a time machine and show Pauline Kael red notice. Yeah, exactly. I'd be like, don't you understand? Yeah.

[02:01:08] [SPEAKER_02] So you mean red one? No, red one. Both red one. Either all. Wait, what's red notice? I'd love to show the fable means. I forgot what red notice is.

[02:01:15] [SPEAKER_06] That's so weird because you're a professional entertainment journalist that you forget red notice, the most watched movie in the history of movies.

[02:01:21] [SPEAKER_02] That's the Netflix one?

[02:01:22] [SPEAKER_05] It's Dwayne Johnson, Ryan Reynolds and Gal Gadot.

[02:01:26] [SPEAKER_06] Eight trillion minutes watched every hour.

[02:01:28] [SPEAKER_05] Where they're like all art thieves and cops. I can't remember. I watched it.

[02:01:33] [SPEAKER_02] I did not watch it. I'm bad at my job.

[02:01:36] [SPEAKER_06] That's mathematically impossible that you didn't watch it. Everyone watched it every day. Okay, okay.

[02:01:42] [SPEAKER_05] The film won Best Screenplay at the Cannes Film Festival, which people forget. Came out in March 1974. End of March 1974, Griffin. And it was not charting. Number one at the box office is the Best Picture winner of 1973. The Godfather Part II? No.

[02:01:57] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, oh, oh, oh. Three. Oh, oh, oh. Huh. It's not French Connection. No. It is... That I believe is 71. 1973.

[02:02:09] [SPEAKER_02] It's not Cabaret, is it?

[02:02:10] [SPEAKER_06] Nope. It's not Midnight Cowboy. I'm trying to think of the early 70s winners. That's 69, I think. Oh, you're right. But it wins in 70. Okay, so it's not... What's the movie that wins in between The Godfathers? That's what I'm trying to... David, in fact, that's what I'm trying to remember. The movie that wins in between The Godfathers. It was a gigantic hit starring two major stars. I don't feel like I remember. It's stars... Two major stars. It's The Sting? The Sting. One of the highest grossing movies in history. Should have done that.

[02:02:39] [SPEAKER_02] I was just re-watching The Sting.

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_06] Adjusted for inflation, The Sting made like...

[02:02:42] [SPEAKER_05] It's right up there. Made like $20 billion. I mean, Thanos was in it. He was. Huge hit. It's been out for four months or whatever, and it's still completely crushing it. Number two at the box office is a big flop. It is a musical film starring someone who didn't make a lot of movies. Interesting.

[02:03:03] [SPEAKER_06] It's based on... Based on a musical. Is it Mahogany or... No. But when you say someone who doesn't make a lot of movies, is it someone like that who's primarily a musician or a singer? No. Interesting.

[02:03:17] [SPEAKER_05] What's the other medium of performance?

[02:03:20] [SPEAKER_06] Comedy? Yeah. The primarily... Television.

[02:03:23] [SPEAKER_05] Television star. More of a TV star. Not that she didn't make movies, but she's...

[02:03:26] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, it's Mary Tyler Moore?

[02:03:27] [SPEAKER_05] Nope.

[02:03:28] [SPEAKER_06] Fuck.

[02:03:29] [SPEAKER_05] Nope. And it's not Lucille Ball in Mame? It is Lucille Ball in Mame. That's exactly what it is. And what we got there... You did. Her last role. Lucille Ball's last film role. Right. Because... She didn't make a lot of movies. Yeah. Now, she did tell J. Edgar Hoover to go take a hike, though.

[02:03:47] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. Or whatever. Someone did that. No, it was the opposite. J. Edgar Hoover said, I like you, and everyone went...

[02:03:52] [SPEAKER_07] And everyone was like, Yay!

[02:03:55] [SPEAKER_06] You haven't seen Juror No. 2 yet? No. Maybe tomorrow.

[02:03:58] [SPEAKER_07] That's crazy that you haven't.

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, it'll be old business by the time this episode comes out, but I'm sitting there watching it, and it made me so retroactively angry that J.K. Simmons got an Oscar nomination for being the Ricardos. I'm like, J.K. Simmons should get four acting nominations just for Juror No. 2. He's so good. That's exactly what you want him doing.

[02:04:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, he does a Chicago accent.

[02:04:18] [SPEAKER_05] Oh my God, David. That sounds good. You're gonna nut. I'm gonna nut. I'm already nutting. Number two is Mame. Number three is the film that The Sting beats to Best Picture that is another of the adjusted for inflation, like highest grossing movies of all time.

[02:04:33] [SPEAKER_06] That's not... It's not The Exorcist, right? It sure is.

[02:04:36] [SPEAKER_05] William Friedkin's The Exorcist. Yeah. Which is good. Was Exorcist the expected winner? Was Sting just a juggernaut? I think The Sting was a juggernaut, but I think that was a pretty hot Oscars because The Exorcist was such a like hot button sensation. And you had two of the highest grossing movies of all time. Yeah. That were like humongous cultural phenomenons. And then you've got three, the other three biggest movies of all time, Cries and Whispers, A Touch of Class, and American Graffiti, which was a big one. Yeah.

[02:05:06] [SPEAKER_06] That is...

[02:05:07] [SPEAKER_05] It's a really good five. You had to have like three full-on blockbusters. Sting, Graffiti, Exorcist, Cries and Whispers, which is a wonderful nomination, and then Touch of Class where you're like, yeah, they had to have like a British thing.

[02:05:18] [SPEAKER_06] Right. But it's not the worst movie. Two austere European, emotionally devastating films, and then like three like rollicking hits. though,

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_02] it was sort of like goofy. Yeah, it's a good one. Okay. Yeah, it's a Touch of Class.

[02:05:31] [SPEAKER_06] I've never seen Touch of Class.

[02:05:32] [SPEAKER_02] I watched it for my book.

[02:05:34] [SPEAKER_05] Exorcist is a far better film than The Sting, in my opinion, but I get it with The Sting, just in terms of like, the vibes were great. Right? I mean, like, right? I mean, everyone had a good time. Tinkly piano. Cons. Hats.

[02:05:51] [SPEAKER_06] Things slowly transitioning from daguerreotype into real limits.

[02:05:55] [SPEAKER_05] That's good! That still gets me. People were losing their shit. Number four, the box office.

[02:06:01] [SPEAKER_06] So Bradford would have been Captain America. And Paul Newman would be Tony Stark. Yes, he would. If Robert Shaw is Thanos. Right. Right? Sure.

[02:06:12] [SPEAKER_05] And Marvin Hamlisch is our, is Alan Silvestri. Right. Number four, it's a adventure, action-adventure movie. One of the drunkest films ever made. One of the drunkest films ever made.

[02:06:26] [SPEAKER_06] It's an action-adventure movie. I'm just assuming.

[02:06:29] [SPEAKER_02] As in the people were drunk when they were making it. I'm assuming. Oh, man.

[02:06:31] [SPEAKER_06] It's not like Kelly's Heroes or something like that. No. That was probably a drunk one too, though. Is it a war film, though? No. No, it's not. It's not. One of the drunkest films ever made. Does it have a lot of old British theater act? Correct. Okay. A lot of Brits.

[02:06:44] [SPEAKER_05] It's got a lot of Brits. Including one who was just like a walking barrel of wine. Oliver Reed? Correct.

[02:06:50] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[02:06:51] Okay.

[02:06:54] [SPEAKER_05] But one of those guys with like, he was really famously drunk. You're like, that guy? Are you sure? Nothing about him reads that way.

[02:07:00] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, I just love, like maybe twice a year, I read the Wikipedia entry on Oliver Reed's death during the filming of Gladiator. And they were like, he's uninsurable. If he has one more drink, he'll die. And they hired a body man to watch him at all times to make sure he didn't drink. And then he was found dead at a pub sitting next to his body man. And they were like, you had one job. And he was like, I was never going to stop it. Are you fucking kidding me? He died doing a drinking competition. Wait, really? Yeah.

[02:07:29] [SPEAKER_06] The guy was basically like, what did you expect? And everyone was like, yeah, we press no charge. He had like an accountability buddy.

[02:07:37] [SPEAKER_05] It was, I believe it was truly David Hemmings who is in Gladiator, another great British actor who had been drafted into that. And he was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know, man. Right. And you're like, what? He died of old age? No, he was 27. I mean, Oliver Reed is one of those things where you see him in Gladiator and you're like, oh, he's like 75 in this, right? And they're like, no, he's like just turned 60. Denzel now is 15 years older than Gladiator 2. Right. Like he could like have sex all day in that movie. And does. In the movie?

[02:08:08] [SPEAKER_05] He really is very good at that film.

[02:08:10] [SPEAKER_01] He's so good.

[02:08:11] [SPEAKER_05] In a film I think is totally fine and entertaining, but like he is just sort of. He's so good. Did you see we got the bucket after?

[02:08:17] [SPEAKER_01] He's a little bi. Yeah, it's a good.

[02:08:19] [SPEAKER_06] The bucket's good. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm a big fan of the bucket.

[02:08:22] [SPEAKER_01] It's a good bucket.

[02:08:23] [SPEAKER_06] Anyway, what's this movie? It stars Oliver Reed. Okay. Oliver Reed, drunk adventure film. Action adventure. Can you give me like, is there another sub genre? Is there a setting? Is there? Swashbuckler. Oh, is it Three Musketeers?

[02:08:36] [SPEAKER_05] It's the Three Musketeers film I've seen. I don't remember very well, but I've seen both it and The Four Musketeers. Um, but you know, it's just, it's not just that it's like Oliver Reed and stuff. It's like Oliver Reed and Richard Taylor and they're, you know, they've got their hats and like, ah, fuck you. You know, waving swords around. Like these are not like. Yeah, these aren't really like nuanced performances. Yeah. I've never seen those. People love them, right? I think now they would probably play a little like stiffer than we think.

[02:09:06] [SPEAKER_05] I feel like there's been a bit of a reclamation project recently on them.

[02:09:10] [SPEAKER_06] Well, because Soderbergh is so fond of the Richard Lester sort of vibe. I think Tarantino loves those movies. They shot on a really unique film format too. Drunko Vision? I was going to say they just poured brandy into the camera. Beer-o-vision?

[02:09:24] [SPEAKER_05] They used a beer bottle as the lens? Oh boy. Alcoholism is a serious business, except when it's British actors from the 60s. Say that while I'm already laughing. Then it's funny. Because now they're all old and or dead. So it's like, okay, you know? Remind me who the four were. Oh, in the Three Musketeers. Michael York as D'Artagnan. Oliver Reed as Athos.

[02:09:50] [SPEAKER_05] Frank Finlay, the great Frank Finlay, who recently died, as Porthos. And Richard Chamberlain as Aramis. Who is American? Richard Chamberlain. But you know, kind of in that world. Love to pull the cork.

[02:10:02] [SPEAKER_06] You know I've been misattributing that for years.

[02:10:04] [SPEAKER_05] You have, you've been, or I have. One of us has been misattributing the speaker of that line. Yes. Because Dakin Matthews is in the scene, but he doesn't actually say it. Dakin Matthews is the one who she negotiates with.

[02:10:15] [SPEAKER_06] And he's amazing in that scene. And I already forget the name of the actor. Yeah, it's whatever. But it's my favorite actor of all time. My favorite performance in movie history.

[02:10:23] [SPEAKER_05] Number five of the box office. I already mentioned it. It's a big drama with some big stars. Big long movie. It's a big long movie.

[02:10:31] [SPEAKER_06] Is it a touch of class? No. No.

[02:10:33] [SPEAKER_05] It's a big long movie. It was a big hit. It was like a big expensive film. I think of it as kind of a boring movie. Honestly. Interesting. Major director?

[02:10:43] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. Kind of?

[02:10:45] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. I mean, yeah. Major-ish. He made some big movies, including this one. You think it's... Two huge stars. Kind of boring. Two huge stars. Dalton Trumbo wrote the script. So it was a wet one.

[02:10:58] [SPEAKER_01] He was in the bathtub.

[02:11:00] [SPEAKER_05] I can be clacked. Splish splash.

[02:11:02] [SPEAKER_06] Splish splash. Click, click, clap. Dalton Trumbo wrote it. You think it's a male and female star?

[02:11:08] [SPEAKER_05] No. Two boys. Two boys. It's a boy movie. Big boy movie. It's a big boy movie. It's a movie as a teenager that boys would tell me rocked. And I'd be like, eh, it's okay. Really? Yeah. It was remade recently, like completely irrelevantly. Teenage boys loved it. No, but that's kind of a bad clue. Yeah. Because I feel like... I'm just... It was remade irrelevantly. It's... In the last 10 years. In the last 10 years. Uh, I'm gonna give you a hint. It's a prison movie? Oh, Pep Young. What? I mean, I'm not wrong, right? Yeah.

[02:11:38] [SPEAKER_05] Kind of boring. It's interesting.

[02:11:41] Okay.

[02:11:41] [SPEAKER_05] Completely disagree. Wow. Completely disagree. But it just goes on a bit. Yeah. It's got cool stuff.

[02:11:47] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. And like, they're good. Yeah. I've told that story on the podcast about Stephen McQueen smuggling the coke in the tires of his luxury sports car that he made them fly to the island. It rings a faint bell, but I'm not... Well, I've ruined the story. You sure have. Yeah. You just told it. It was Dustin Hoffman recognizing that's the level of star power this guy has. Right. That he demands they fly his... Sports car. So he can drive it around the island in between... Right. And he's like, oh, ho, ho. And he was like, that's a power move.

[02:12:16] [SPEAKER_06] And it's like, no, the car is the packaging system for the cocaine. You can snort this car. Yeah.

[02:12:23] [SPEAKER_05] Number six at the box office, I just want to say, is a, I think, Hong Kong action movie called Bloodfingers. This looks fun. Cool. I don't know how that's in the top ten, but it is. Yeah. Bloodfingers. You've also got Serpico. You've heard of that one.

[02:12:37] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. A good movie, although lower on my 70s Lumet and 70s Pacino.

[02:12:44] [SPEAKER_05] But I kind of rock. Yeah. No, it does kind of rock. It just kind of rocks that it's about a guy who's like, I don't want to be a cop. I want to be like kind of a dirty hippie guy.

[02:12:52] [SPEAKER_06] Peter Serafino, which would always shit talk Serpico, I've had this conversation with him like 15 times where he's like, you know what movie I don't like? Serpico. And I'm like, really? And he goes, I'm an annoying god. He is kind of. The whole movie is kind of about him being annoying.

[02:13:07] [SPEAKER_04] Serpico, the dude is annoying. He is annoying.

[02:13:09] [SPEAKER_06] Which I've always, I like, I love the movie. He's right. He is right.

[02:13:12] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, like, Serpico's in the right. Infamously annoying. Yeah. It's annoying that he's so right. Number eight is a movie I've never heard of starring Elliot Gould and Robert Blake, the mystery man himself. It's not Bustin. Busting. Yeah, yeah. That's a Himes movie. I don't know that movie. Yeah, it's a Himes movie.

[02:13:28] [SPEAKER_06] It's a cop movie? We talked about it in our 2010 episode a little bit. I don't remember. Good name? I've never seen it. It's a Gould blind spot for me. You think it makes them feel good? In the 70s, Bustin didn't really make anyone feel good.

[02:13:41] [SPEAKER_05] Number nine at the box office is The Great Blazing Saddles. Gun to my head, my favorite comedy of all time. Good call. And number 10 at the box office is a major flop of the year, The Great Gatsby. Oh, yeah. Jack Clayton's terminally dull, nice looking. Just one of those inexplicably inert movies. Yeah. And that's why when people shit on the Lerman movie, I'm like, I don't know, man. That movie is fun and moves. And you can see the really boring Lerman movie.

[02:14:10] [SPEAKER_06] I've seen it 1,000 times. You know, I think if they try doing four more Broadway musicals, they're going to cry.

[02:14:16] [SPEAKER_02] But at the same time. Okay, apparently the one that was in Boston was good.

[02:14:19] [SPEAKER_06] Right. The other one that we haven't gotten yet.

[02:14:22] [SPEAKER_02] Only on Broadway is Garb. But apparently the other one.

[02:14:25] [SPEAKER_05] But is the other one going to transfer?

[02:14:27] [SPEAKER_02] I think, yeah, definitely. Right. Probably.

[02:14:30] [SPEAKER_05] Definitely probably. It does seem like the bad one made so little impact that they can probably just have another one.

[02:14:36] [SPEAKER_02] Also, the one from Artis has music by Florence and the Machine. So it's probably a little bit. It is like more grabby.

[02:14:47] [SPEAKER_04] Sounds like the dog days were happening.

[02:14:49] [SPEAKER_02] Hmm.

[02:14:52] [SPEAKER_06] Here's the thing that's interesting about this current era of David Sims we're living through.

[02:14:57] [SPEAKER_02] This current era of David Sims?

[02:14:58] [SPEAKER_06] What's the great thing of what? Okay, go on. David, you are admittedly pretty stressed and sleep deprived at all times. Sure. Sometimes you have 90% less tolerance for my jokes than you usually do. And other times you are so susceptible to them. Very amused by that. I'll throw out just real weak tea and it'll break you.

[02:15:17] [SPEAKER_02] You do seem, David does seem just to place this episode real tired all the time.

[02:15:23] [SPEAKER_05] I think that's not going to change for a little bit. And, you know, previously you've always been considered a bright eyed and bushy tailed.

[02:15:31] [SPEAKER_06] Leave me alone.

[02:15:33] [SPEAKER_03] We're done.

[02:15:34] [SPEAKER_00] We're done.

[02:15:35] [SPEAKER_03] I think David said to me recently when I asked him, how's it going? He said, hanging by a thread.

[02:15:44] [SPEAKER_06] We're living through good times. Esther?

[02:15:48] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yeah. Buy my book.

[02:15:51] [SPEAKER_06] Buy her dang book, folks.

[02:15:53] [SPEAKER_02] Buy my dang book if you want to.

[02:15:55] [SPEAKER_06] The link's in the episode description.

[02:15:58] [SPEAKER_02] The link's in the episode description. By this time, I will have had a wonderful launch, hopefully, with David Sims moderating.

[02:16:07] [SPEAKER_06] Where's that happening?

[02:16:08] [SPEAKER_02] The Strand. I emailed you about it. You got to check your email. Ben also got it. Ben acknowledged it. It's on December 3rd. And it'll be fun. We're going to go drinking afterwards.

[02:16:21] [SPEAKER_06] I did respond. Okay, I'll SGP right now.

[02:16:27] [SPEAKER_02] But yeah, I am proud of that. And it's, I think it's fun. I think it's a fun, fun little read.

[02:16:33] [SPEAKER_06] Is it the dumb question you've been asked a trillion times? I've maybe asked you in the past. What, what your, do you have a like sort of perfect rom-com in your mind? Not even favorite. I saw you're doing a Philadelphia story.

[02:16:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's my favorite.

[02:16:47] [SPEAKER_06] That's, yeah.

[02:16:48] [SPEAKER_02] That's my favorite. I don't know. Perfect is so hard.

[02:16:51] [SPEAKER_06] Is there one that you just think is like, I mean, it might be Philadelphia's story, but

[02:16:55] [SPEAKER_02] I do think that movie is brilliant.

[02:16:57] [SPEAKER_06] The sort of like ultimate example of what you like or want out of the genre.

[02:17:02] [SPEAKER_02] Roman Holiday always ends up real high on my list.

[02:17:04] [SPEAKER_06] It's a really good movie.

[02:17:07] [SPEAKER_02] Sabrina always ends up really high on my list. Um, yeah.

[02:17:12] [SPEAKER_05] We're both, we're both horny for Bogey.

[02:17:14] [SPEAKER_02] Actually, and Bill Holden. Yeah.

[02:17:16] [SPEAKER_05] He's hot.

[02:17:17] [SPEAKER_02] We, we, yeah.

[02:17:18] [SPEAKER_05] But Bogey.

[02:17:19] [SPEAKER_02] Ah.

[02:17:20] [SPEAKER_05] Bogey in that Sabrina mode. You don't see it enough.

[02:17:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[02:17:23] [SPEAKER_06] I just never can process how short he was. He's a little guy. But he's one of those guys where just on screen, it doesn't make sense. And then you hear that he was like my size.

[02:17:32] [SPEAKER_02] So those are, those are obviously, obviously, I think. Oh, a great pick. You know, the Nora is like when Harry is pretty boring to pick. But I do think it's pretty perfect.

[02:17:44] [SPEAKER_05] It's pretty perfect. Kate Leopold. Kate Leopold. Someone like you. Raising Helen.

[02:17:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[02:17:49] [SPEAKER_05] Wait, I'm trying to think. Is there a third Hugh Jackman rom-com?

[02:17:51] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, you just like the Hughes.

[02:17:53] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Is there a third?

[02:17:54] [SPEAKER_05] X-Men Origins Wolverine. Beautiful. Him and Dominic Monaghan. Well, there isn't, right? Yeah. I mean, it's just so annoying where it was like, let's get this guy in some rom-coms. They make Kate Leopold, which Loki rocks someone like you, which is fairly anonymous. And then they're kind of like, yeah, forget it. Like that era is over.

[02:18:11] [SPEAKER_06] It's the thing we talk about a lot that he was like in the last generation where they were trying to do the conventional movie Star Trek of like, we got to get you in one of each. We got to build your audience piece by piece. And then they were like, what if you're just Wolverine? And then every 10 years you get the action.

[02:18:25] [SPEAKER_02] Well, and the great ands.

[02:18:26] [SPEAKER_06] That's what I'm saying. Like it was basically like if you do six Wolverines for every six Wolverines, we let you do your own thing one time and then create a showman work.

[02:18:35] [SPEAKER_05] I just love the premise of a someone like you were actually just like someone dumped me. Greg Kinnear fucking dumped me. And Hugh Jackman plays a guy who's like, well, man or pigs. Yeah. He's like man or pigs. And she's like, oh, you I can't listen to you. Handsomest person who ever lived. He's like, all right, I'll just sit over here. And after a while, she's like, you want to fuck me? And you're like, yeah. And then it's like, roll credit. That's a Tony Goldwyn picture.

[02:18:59] [SPEAKER_04] It is.

[02:19:00] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Pretty funny that it's a Tony Goldwyn movie. I don't really know why. He made that movie is fine. And then The Last Kiss, that movie with Braff. Yeah. Is so fucking execrable. That movie is so bad. That you were like banish this man from filmmaking.

[02:19:14] [SPEAKER_06] And then he just had like an incredible second wind as like a hunk once again. As sort of a hunk for mom.

[02:19:22] [SPEAKER_02] I went to go see The Last Kiss in a movie theater because I was so excited about the new Zach Braff picture. That really makes me feel like a piece of shit.

[02:19:33] [SPEAKER_06] No, but it was like his first big move post-Garden State.

[02:19:36] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, 100%. It was like Zach has something to say. It has his fingerprints all over it. Like that Braff clearly was like, here's my iPod. I'm doing the soundtrack for this movie and all that.

[02:19:47] [SPEAKER_02] It's so bad. Anyway. Yeah. Not a good movie. But there are a lot of good movies in my book, which has also some nice pictures.

[02:19:58] [SPEAKER_06] Can we restate? I just always like this game, especially as now we're firmly in our 10th year of the podcast. The Esther Zuckerman blank check canon is.

[02:20:09] [SPEAKER_00] Uh-huh.

[02:20:10] [SPEAKER_06] I'm not going in order here. The Little Mermaid.

[02:20:14] [SPEAKER_00] Uh-huh.

[02:20:14] [SPEAKER_06] The Pianer.

[02:20:15] [SPEAKER_00] Uh-huh.

[02:20:16] [SPEAKER_06] I'll do anything. Regular musical cut.

[02:20:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[02:20:20] [SPEAKER_06] Uh, Gone Girl.

[02:20:21] [SPEAKER_00] Uh-huh.

[02:20:22] [SPEAKER_06] Sugar Land Express.

[02:20:23] [SPEAKER_00] Uh-huh.

[02:20:24] [SPEAKER_06] I feel like for a while you were like, you guys saddled me with the bad movies.

[02:20:27] [SPEAKER_02] You were getting the big one. My first one.

[02:20:29] [SPEAKER_06] Uh, well, Aloha, which of course is about the sky. Am I forgetting another one?

[02:20:36] [SPEAKER_02] We can't see the sky in here. It's so dark. I do think you've successfully. I want to take it out.

[02:20:41] [SPEAKER_06] You've won back the narrative.

[02:20:42] [SPEAKER_02] I have. I have. It's really nice.

[02:20:44] [SPEAKER_06] You've now covered more good films than bad.

[02:20:46] [SPEAKER_02] I know. You can, next time you can give me a piece of shit.

[02:20:48] [SPEAKER_06] Oh, get ready. You're going to get a fucking stinger.

[02:20:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Next time you can.

[02:20:52] [SPEAKER_05] That's Tom Shadjak's worst movie.

[02:20:54] No.

[02:20:55] [SPEAKER_02] I'll refuse. Just kidding. I'll always come on.

[02:20:57] [SPEAKER_06] Evan Almighty. Yeah. 2025. Get on the arc, baby. Esther Zuckerman on Evan Almighty. No.

[02:21:01] [SPEAKER_02] You're welcome to give me a piece of shit next time. They are fun. I've had some real nice luck, though. Doing some good ones.

[02:21:09] [SPEAKER_05] You're one of the best. Yeah, best Esther. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. You are. Yeah, you sounded like, wow. You're the best, Esther. Sugar Land Express. Great movie.

[02:21:18] [SPEAKER_02] Woo.

[02:21:19] [SPEAKER_05] Next week, Jaws.

[02:21:21] [SPEAKER_02] Never heard of it.

[02:21:23] [SPEAKER_06] What's up with that one? Yeah. And just a pre-warning, that one's kind of more of a mini, so we just didn't have much to say about it.

[02:21:30] [SPEAKER_02] Who's on your Jaws? Timothy Simons. Aw, fun.

[02:21:33] [SPEAKER_06] The great Tim Simons is back to talk about Jaws in what is...

[02:21:36] [SPEAKER_05] Definitely at least 20 minutes to talk about our text styles.

[02:21:39] [SPEAKER_06] There's a lot of text talk. But a lot of very on-topic conversation about the movie Jaws and what is, jokes aside, a very long episode. Yeah, it's long. I don't know.

[02:21:48] [SPEAKER_05] Fuck you. Hey. Not you, the listener. You don't like it? Listen or talk to her. Let's see how long those are. See how long those episodes are.

[02:21:59] [SPEAKER_06] How much do you think she talks about Jaws per episode? If you're complaining that we're talking too much about other shit. I don't think she does. It's like she does about an hour.

[02:22:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I would guess she's maybe never seen a movie.

[02:22:10] [SPEAKER_06] Well, she's seen like parts of movies.

[02:22:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[02:22:12] [SPEAKER_06] She's probably seen like The Lion King. We're still waiting to hear back if she wants to do Empire of the Sun. Come on. She's seen a movie.

[02:22:18] [SPEAKER_02] You should have my dad on Empire of the Sun. My dad fucking loves Empire of the Sun. Yeah. My dad loves Empire of the Sun.

[02:22:24] [SPEAKER_06] Well, it's...

[02:22:25] [SPEAKER_01] It's one of my dad's faves.

[02:22:26] [SPEAKER_06] It's between him and Hayley Walsh, so...

[02:22:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[02:22:29] [SPEAKER_06] Tell him to work on his page.

[02:22:30] [SPEAKER_05] Hey, I just typed in... Hayley Walsh movie? I typed in Talk Tua's favorite movie. Yeah. Like, just call her Talk Tua. Which I should have called her something else. And Google's AI, which, to be clear, I don't think should exist, answered that her favorite movie is The Jazz Singer. And I'm just trying to think of, like, the sort of computer brain fart that would lead

[02:22:58] [SPEAKER_05] to it being like, I don't know, it's kind of just the first movie with talking in it would be the answer to that.

[02:23:06] [SPEAKER_06] Does Talk Tua sound like jazz scatting? Like, what is the math they're doing? Well, that's...

[02:23:13] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, talky.

[02:23:15] [SPEAKER_06] Yes, I believe that's what it's doing.

[02:23:16] [SPEAKER_01] It wasn't like choosing between Neil Diamond and Al Jules.

[02:23:20] [SPEAKER_06] Think of no more appropriate way to end this episode. Correct. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Jaws, a very successful film. Yep. Big one. Over on the Patreon, we're doing our Spielberg bonuses, covering a lot of his early short films and TV work. And of course, most importantly, we are finally tackling the Jelly Trilogy as commentary. And as always, from the bottom of my heart, I implore all of our listeners to spit on that thing.

[02:23:49] [SPEAKER_06] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!